Blogs FAQ Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read
 


Welcome to Koi Forum - Koi-Bito Magazine
Go Back   Koi Forum - Koi-Bito Magazine > Hobbyist Koi Forums > General Koi Forum

General Koi Forum The main koi forum. Most posts should be made here.

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes

Old 06-12-2006   #1 (permalink)
Nisai
 
bigred's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Los Banos, Ca
Posts: 82
PH issues

What is the ideal ph level for a pond? My tap water is 8.17 out of the tap and I tested my pond this afternoon and it was at 8.66. I added some buffer to it and it brought it down to 7.98. What should it be at during the hottest part of the day?

Thanks Steve
bigred is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!Reddit!
Reply With Quote
Old 06-12-2006   #2 (permalink)
Nisai
 
bigred's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Los Banos, Ca
Posts: 82
Also could this be contributing to the flashing of the fish?
bigred is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!Reddit!
Reply With Quote
Old 06-12-2006   #3 (permalink)
Honmei
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Martinez,CA
Posts: 4,607
Do you have a liner pond or a concrete pond? Do you have a lot of algae growth?

It is important to remember that whatever your pH is, if it is between 7.0 and 9.0 and is stable, your Koi will adapt. It is better if it is lower as the colors of your fish will be affected by high pH.

Yes, fluctuations in pH during the day can cause your fish to flash, but make sure that they do not have some sort of parasite like flukes. If a parasite is causing the flashing and you assume it is the pH, then the problem will get worse.

Make sure that when you lower your pH that you are not using a product that is acid based. If it is, then when it is neutralized your pH will rise again and this constant change of pH will absolutely stress out your fish.
Russell Peters is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!Reddit!
Reply With Quote
Old 06-12-2006   #4 (permalink)
Oyagoi
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Puerto Rico
Posts: 1,228
I will start the fight by saying that 6.8-7.4 is best for koi. Of course we can get them to live in much higher, then again humans can live for years while on crack. Just kidding, black does well in higher ph (7.5-7.8), and shiro and beni in lower. Part of what is ideal is what kind of koi you have and what goals you have for them.
junglegeorge12 is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!Reddit!
Reply With Quote
Old 06-12-2006   #5 (permalink)
Nisai
 
bigred's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Los Banos, Ca
Posts: 82
I have a liner. No concrete except the retaining wall around the pond area. I did use some buffer from Seachem that is acid base so what kind do you recomend?
bigred is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!Reddit!
Reply With Quote
Old 06-12-2006   #6 (permalink)
REC
Nisai
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Warrenton, VA
Posts: 72
Getting the "Perfect pH"

Steve,

I wrote this on another forum and if it is OK with Jim North would like to post it here as well.

REC

An old friend of KoiVet's asked me to write an article for his koi club on pH. He was reading with interest a thread that I was contributing to regarding "the perfect pH", GH, KH and all of those things. And he wanted something less head-spinning than the Mystery Thread. So, I wrote the following and would appreciate any comments on its content and accuracy. Remember this is for a general audiance with no direct way to ask questions.

Getting The Perfect pH For Your Pond.

Much of the talk surrounding koi health issues is about “getting the right pH.” And, in fact, no single water quality parameter is more important than the right pH. The reason is simple… your pond water is your fish’s environment where ALL things happen. Most importantly, the chemistry of the water DIRECTLY affects all aspects of the physiology of the fish, and in particular, the blood chemistry of the fish. So, it is critically important to get the “right pH” or more importantly, the “perfect pH” for your pond. But how?

Let’s start by exploring pH but let’s keep it simple for now. pH defines the intensity of the acidity or alkalinity of the water. Low pH is acid, high pH is alkaline. For koi ponds, the nominal (I did not say “perfect”) pH is 7.5 and the reason is that this is the same pH level of normal blood in koi and goldfish. We also know that the ideal range of pH for koi and goldfish is from 7.0 to 9.0 which simply means that fish will tolerate a fairly broad range of pH levels.

Your pond’s pH level is impacted by a number of factors, including carbon dioxide (CO2) and the buffers available to off-set the CO2. Also, the mineral content of the water (which makes it hard or soft water) plays a critical role. But the most significant is CO2 which is produced as a result of plant and fish respiration, biological bacterial action, and other chemical reactions in the pond. CO2 is very acidic and always present in your pond’s environment. In fact, it is required for the respiration of plants and fish. So, all ponds have an immediate problem that needs to be managed.. the acidic CO2.

Along with the pond’s pH level, we also need to know and understand our carbonate hardness (KH) and general hardness (GH) numbers as each plays a critical role in your pond’s pH level. In short, KH levels show the ability for the water to neutralize the acidic CO2. We call this buffering. And the GH levels provide the hardness of the water usually expressed in how much dissolved calcium and/or magnesium is available in the water. Using the US metrics, the ideal range for both KH and GH levels is 80-120. KH levels can be achieved using baking soda on a regular basis as the constant barrage of CO2 in the water will deplete the buffers over time. How fast depends on what’s in your pond (fish load, plants, water volume). GH levels will remain constant except when diluted by water changes with lower GH levels. Calcium chloride and magnesium sulfate (Epsom salts) are good for maintaining GH levels.

In chemistry terms, the relationship between the pH level, KH levels and GH levels is very complicated. But it is safe to say this…. A good KH level (80-120) will maintain a stable pH AND a good GH level (80-120) is essential for that to happen. Now, this is simplistic but the point is that both good KH and GH levels are required to establish and maintain a rock-solid pH level.

Virtually every koi health practitioner will tell you that when it comes to pH, a stable pH is more important than the nominal 7.5. And this is absolutely correct. Avoiding swings in the pH is critical to maintaining excellent koi health. The proper adjustment of both KH and GH levels will guarantee a stable pH.

But what about reaching the “perfect pH”?? Or is there such a thing? In fact, there is such a thing as a “perfect pH” but it may not be pH 7.5. It may be 7.0 or even 8.8. And the reason is simple: your pond, with all its living parts, is going to be the pH it wants to be based on the chemistry happening inside of it. Our job is to provide our closed-system ponds with the chance to find and hold its own pH level by managing good KH and GH levels. Once we have provided a stable KH and GH chemistry environment, the interactions of the minerals against the buffers, which are neutralizing the acids will allow the pond to find its own stable pH. Once the pH is stable, leave it alone even if it is 7.0 or 9.0 as the fish will adapt and thrive in a stable, stress-free environment as you now have the PERFECT pH.

Here are some additional comments about pH:

1. The pH of baking soda is 8.4 but that does not mean by using it your pond water pH will be 8.4. The overall impact of the minerals (GH) and acids in the water will move your pH to a stable level.
2. Know the pH, KH, and GH of your source water so you understand how this water will affect the pond chemistry during water changes.
3. NEVER… NEVER… NEVER… use products designed to adjust your pH up or down. NEVER. Have I made my point? If your pH needs adjusting, do it through the proper balance of good KH and GH levels. The addition of these products adds acids (for down) or alkalines (for up) will only deplete in short order.
4. If you have a stable pH of the nominal 7.5, consider yourself lucky.

As I said earlier, this is a simplistic view of how the chemistry in your pond can be managed to get your fish the “perfect pH.”
REC is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!Reddit!
Reply With Quote
Old 06-13-2006   #7 (permalink)
Honmei
 
KoiCop's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Southern California
Posts: 2,673
Thanks, Richard . . .

very well put -- and something that can't be emphasized too often or too strenously.
KoiCop is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!Reddit!
Reply With Quote
Old 06-16-2006   #8 (permalink)
Sansai
 
KoiCCAPW's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Cupertino,Northern CA ,U.S.A.
Posts: 233
Source water being equal, do liner ponds in general have more low pH problems that concrete ponds?

I have never really worried about pH, but my pond is old concrete.
KH is always at least 300ppm and the GH just about always 180ppm, give or take a point or two.
The pH has been very stedy at 8.0 most of the year, except in spring when I get an algae bloom, and then goes up to about 8.8 to 9 until the algae subsides. Then back to 8.0 solid for months on end.
I've wondered if I should try and adjust the pH during the algae blooms, but I'm always chicken about adding stuff to the pond, and by the time I get up the courage, the algae subsides and pH goes back to being very stable, so I've never done anything except watch and fret.

Seems like those with liner ponds post more problems with pH, but that may just be a coincidence.
__________________
Barb

Santa Clara Valley Koi & Water Garden Club

http://www.sckoi.com

Zen Nippon Airinkai Nor-Cal Chapter

http://www.znanorcal.org
KoiCCAPW is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!Reddit!
Reply With Quote
Old 06-16-2006   #9 (permalink)
Oyagoi
 
koiczar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 2,351
[quote=KoiCCAPW]Source water being equal, do liner ponds in general have more low pH problems that concrete ponds?

I have never really worried about pH, but my pond is old concrete.
KH is always at least 300ppm and the GH just about always 180ppm, give or take a point or two.

Barb

Are you sure about your above posted levels of KH and GH. I would think they should be reversed??!

By the way, almost sounds like my water, except Kh is around 120-140

Mike
koiczar is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!Reddit!
Reply With Quote
Old 06-16-2006   #10 (permalink)
Sansai
 
KoiCCAPW's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Cupertino,Northern CA ,U.S.A.
Posts: 233
Arrgh, where's my test strips bottle when I need it. Ok, yea I do get these mixed up sometimes.

The 300ppm reading is the one above the 180ppm reading on the bottle of Jungle test strips.
KoiCCAPW is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!Reddit!
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Water issues Sajan General Koi Forum 10 07-18-2008 02:29 AM
Number of Koi-Bito issues JasPR General Koi Forum 3 04-23-2007 01:03 PM
Thank You Brian! KB back issues arrived. Richard Rombold General Koi Forum 1 03-15-2007 04:22 AM
Are you having log in issues? jnorth General Koi Forum 7 09-01-2006 07:28 AM
Green Algae issues any suggestions? JJKOI General Koi Forum 4 06-19-2006 06:38 AM



©2008 Koi-Bito Magazine