Conformation and Body Shape

[luke frisbee]

MikeM,
also consider that a Chagoi looks heavy because it doesn't have a pattern that breaks it up. St Ephen's 40.25 GC from CFKS '05 looked quite the massive Mistress...
However the heads on so many of the Cha's are the acceptable "cute baby-face that I think should be a severe demerit.

[johnsmith]

Right MikM, exactly right.


This is a multi-level conversation, The reality of genetics and what body types actually do exist out there- the 'hump', the torpedo, the short food fish body, the longer matsunosuke body etc.
Then there is the conversation about ideal male vs female body shape

And THEN the conversation about the breeder's standard of 'body' verses the judges standard of conformation ( as an expanded analysis beyond just body).

I mentioned , on another 'channel' the concept of atavism. It is not politically correct to use this concept any more but it is still very much a real scientific principle in animal genetics. Bacically in koi we have two genes that battle one another over color and other traits. The 'wild gene' or atavistic gene, battles other inbred genes for domination. In this case, reversion to the wild state and wild color. In the battle, the modifying gene which is also known as the white ground spreading gene is kept at bay by the atavistic gene. Neither of these is a color gene but rather genes that encourage or discourage color gene presence. Chagoi is a fish dominated by the atavistic gene. Ochiba for instance is a fish that had some modifying gene present in an otherwise wild type or solid type pattern.
As far as the body goes- we often use the 'orientation' of improvement to describe how refined and advanced a koi line has become. In truth, in the eyes of Mother Nature, this is a weakening of her creation and a sort of dead end. 'She' instead, favors a larger more diverse gene pool and has given these koi many atavistic traits- including size and strength. We all know that inbreeding weakens and decreases vigor and health in individuals. Our best koi are often our weakest koi. No surprise there.

JR

[bekko]

Thanks for the explainations.

Personally, I do not like either dolphin-nose or hump-back fish and think these characteristics should be bred out of koi.

-stevehop

[MikeM]

Similar to Chagoi is the Ogon group. An article in the electronic Rinko issue of June 15 notes that some enormous Ogons attracted much attention at the 2006 Tokyo All Japan Show. They were crowd pleasers due to their body structure. ... big, long but thick-bodied, with a large, blunt rounded head. A good Ogon looks strong and hard-bodied, like an armored warrior. Decades ago, Ogon did not have as much shine or clarity of color as we see today. Breeders have focused on shine and color intensity to create striking fish. The search for color and shine has resulted in many Ogon lacking the extraordinary bodies of old-style Ogon. When the old-style body combines with high metallic shine, the impression is awesome.

On another board JR has observed that the robust body of Ogon has been largely sacrificed in Kujaku as a result of crossing with Kohaku to obtain more intense pigment. The Kohaku body shape is becoming dominant.

In my opinion, if koikeepers saw more well-grown mature koi in the Ogon group, they would select the duller orange of Hariwake or Kujaku with old-style body over the more slightly built but deeper orange or red of the contemporary Kujaku/Hariwake. However, few koikeepers have ponds that can accomodate full-sized Ogons, and far fewer purchase mature ones. When seen as young fish, the deep colors prevail...both in the sale tank and the show tank. Breeders supply what the market demands.

I think we would all agree that the key trait of Ogon is its metallic shine. That shine is what makes an Ogon. It is greatest on the fins and the head where the skin is clear... and upon maturity in the thick fukurin skin encasing the scales.

So, what shape is best suited to Ogon? I would suggest that the old-style body has the advantage over the torpedo shape for two reasons. First, the broad head of old-style Ogon provides the better canvas to highlight metallic shine. Second, the inflated body better exhibits scalation. Third, the large proportions project the powerful image of armor plates. It is quite a trade-off when you have to choose between body shape and higher quality pigment. Perhaps breeders will eventually find a way to give koikeepers the best of both. Meanwhile, judges have a responsibility to be sure they are considering the whole fish when judging contemporary and older style Ogons competing with one another.

[johnsmith]

some pictures of a famous ogon- 108 cm. JR

[MikeM]

Perfectly awesome.

What year was that?

[MikeM]

Bekko (a/k/a steve hop a/k/a steveh opkins ) has had me wondering about Tancho body shapes. I've been thumbing through old show books and cannot say that pointed heads are any more prevalent than in other varieties, but looking at All Japan entries is not necessarily the best place to see what is common.

But Tancho deserves some special attention, because it is a special variety. (I refer to Tancho Kohaku.) It is the one variety defined by pattern and it has an ideal pattern that is minutely precise: A perfect circle of bright, thick, clear red positioned precisely in the middle of the forehead, extending to the area between the eyes, but not touching either eye and not overlapping onto the shoulder. The larger the maruten within this precisely defined area, the better. Clean white, with even scalation and a strong body gives a perfect Tancho.

So, what is the ideal body shape for a Tancho? We can imagine whatever we want, but Tancho are a rare by-product of Kohaku breeding. As a result, the torpedo shape is the shape for Kohaku Tancho. However, within Kohaku are some different bloodlines with a range of variation... Manzo, Sensuke, etc. These have been interbred innumerable times so that their different traits are now somewhat blurred. As JR pointed out on NI, there are body shape traits which are more prevalent in certain bloodlines and breeder strains. Among these, he noted that the Manzo line had a tendency toward a broad head and strong shoulder area. It seems to me that Tancho coming from a Manzo-influenced line of Kohaku would be preferable because the large, wide head would give the most ground for the largest maruten. With the maruten being the defining characteristic of Tancho, the head and face of Tancho takes on even more importance than in other varieties. Thus, in theory we would have the graceful, torpedo-shape of Kohaku, but with a wide head as the ideal shape for Tancho. Of course, this is a bit silly because truly good Tancho are rare animals. When one comes along, she should not be missed... oh, but she will be costly.

...A narrow, pointed head would not be desirable for Tancho.

At least, that's how it seems to me.

[MikeM]

If we look at Sanke, I think the first notion would be that Sanke should be shaped like Kohaku. They are, after all, "just" Kohaku with Bekko's sumi. However, it is not that simple, in my opinion. It may have been an appropriate way to consider Sanke in decades past, but today the best Sanke are the Magoi-influenced Matsunosuke bloodline Sanke. Sakai revolutionized Sanke and altered the body shape in not very subtle ways.

The Magoi blood contributed greater size, greater length. But the width of the body is proportionately different, being deeper bodied with greater height, tighter muscled flanks and an overall shape referred to as "cigar-shaped". The difference between a "torpedo" and a "cigar" is simply that in Matsunosuke Sanke there is less of a tapering streamlined body, and more a straight, firm outline. There is a hardness to the Matsunosuke body. It is not a supple form. And the fish swim differently. It is not that Matsunosuke lacks grace, but that the total impression is one of strength, not gracefulness.

Both the Kohaku shape and the Matsunosuke shape can be found in Sanke, and the crossing of Matsunosuke into all the best loved lines leads to intermediate shapes among the Sanke of different breeders.

So, is one shape preferable over the other for the ideal Sanke? If we consider the best shape to be the one in which the variety originated, then the Matsunosuke body is a negative. But in both the show tank and popular mind, Matsunosuke is special. So is either shape and all the intermediate variations equally acceptable? In time the success of Matsunosuke in the show tank will decide the question, but is that because the body structure is better, or simply that the body comes with the rest of the package?

I'd suggest that Matsunosuke genetics has recreated Sanke. In effect, there are two different tricolor nishikigoi named Sanke and they have been interbred. There are differences in the Hi, differences in the Sumi and different bodies. Unfortunately for ourselves, by labeling them with the same name, we deny ourselves permission to value each on its own merits. How different it might be if the Matsunosuke Sanshoku had not been called a Taisho Sanshoku. Each of these tricolors may have developed independently, each to be enjoyed on its own merit, like Chardonnay and Chablis.

...which takes us to the third tricolor, Showa. But that's another post for another day.

[bekko]

My god, you mean sanke are victims of identity theft too?

Good point - that last one. If they had named them 'kindai' instead of 'kindai showa', the art of raising black babies might have been preserved.

-akasteve

[koiczar]

MikeM

I know that Matsunosuke has developed the "new" Sanke line. I guess in some circles, "Bigger is Better". I just don't happen to be one who jumps on board everytime someone creates something that is advertised as such.

Sanke are one of the older, more refined lines. They are still, to this day, one of the more difficult koi to breed (quality wise). The refining of this variety was one of a more feminine gracefulness which complements the robust power of a showa. They are opposites in the koi gene pool yet each has it's place in history. I truly hope that the Matsunosuke line IS in fact bred with other lines which will allow size and feminine grace to once again be the hallmark of a top quality Sanke. IMHO, "Bigger isn't always Better"!

Mike