Conformation and Body Shape

[johnsmith]

technical correction- matsunosuke is only one strain that sakai brothers breed. They also produce sanke that look very different than their original line. Toshio Sakai never rests- not for a minute. Even he considers some of his original fish "old school". It is true that most of his efforts are to extract the best of his famous fish and the body is something he has no great wish to preserve, the size- yes, but the shape? Only of the fish will eventually fill out and produce a massive girth. But since genes for color are linked with other traits, this is a slow process.

In the south you have Saki of Hiroshima ( unrelated) and his sanke are very different, and very beautiful. I'm sure there is a matsunosuke in the wood pile for size but these fish are truly his own line/strain and very different in shape.

And then we have Momotaro. All Matsunosuke based fish and in my opinion, not yet his own strain. But soon they will be as he produces generations of an isolated gene pool.

Personally my favorite sanke are produced by Dainichi. But these beauties will never be as large as Toshio Sakai's fish. Still they have that beautiful Dainichi beni on a full body and they beautiful large round face- very nice.

Back on topic! These body shapes are about strains. And I don't think that is the same thing as historical foundation stock? Unless you want to see the foundation influence as MACRO or historical and the strain evolutions as MICRO or transitory in nature? Time will tell I guess?
JR

[luke frisbee]

an online magazine with a million pics as examples sure would help us all understand this

[MikeM]

Well, JR, the magoi-based Matsunosuke is one that I'd separate out from the other breeding strains as being a separate historical stock...just fairly recent history . As to variations between Dianichi, Sakai of Hiroshima, etc., I guess it comes to be a question of how narrowly a person wants to define a shape, but I'd agree with you that these are trending into a finer level of "breeder appreciation".

[I'd love to debate you on Matsunosuke, with me taking the position that Toshio Sakai revolutionized Sanke, and you having to say it was not revolutionary enough. .... wish I'd saved all your old posts on NI. LOL ....After all, when it comes to Matsunosuke, a very large part of my thinking is either borrowed from you or derived from you or triggered by some statement you've made. ]

[johnsmith]

No, I don't think I could win that one-- JR

[bekko]

I have four Izawa matsunosuke nisai sanke - future breeding stock. They are definitely a different sort of koi, both in conformation and behavior. I liked them until today.

Since koi are art, the fish's head and back are sort of like a canvas. The object of the game is to get a nice white canvas and paint an attractive red and black pattern on it. Matsunosuke are long narrow canvases. Older lines are somewhat shorter and wider. A long narrow canvas will restrict the artistic expression. Imagine if the canvas had the length:width ratio of a pencil. About all you could do is paint a few bold stripes - there is not room for much else.

Are matsunosuke destined to have a less interesting patterns because they are narrower canvases?

-stev eho

[johnsmith]

Isawa sakai produces three or four distinct lines/strains of sanke. One is the classic 'cigar' shaped matsunosuke sanke. It's body is longer from the back of the head to the beginning of the dosal. The males and young females really show this very recognizable body shape. The beni is also a yellow type beni which often looks brownish red in certain lighting conditions. These koi , in the ideal, become very large and the impression left with the viewer is no longer one of a narrow, long fish but rather a massive fish. Momotaro has done great things building these bodies to a larger/wider finished individual. Personally I like Sakai's other line where the beni is more 'kohaku-like'. Having said that, I own several sakai and Shinataro fish ( all classic matsunosuke type) and in fact still own that Goromo from Isawa that placed in the All Japan. It is now a mature fish and the body is full. I'll try and post a current shot along side the show winning picture and you can see the change in a typical matsunosuke fish as they reach full maturity. She is all 'Matsunosuke'. JR

[HenryC]

When I read Mike's posts I feel the wrong Orlando club member is up here at the judging seminar.

I have a Matsunosuke Kohaku that for years seemed a bit thin, although she has a thick powerful tail. After this summer she will be gosai and is now starting to broaden across the shoulders and getting a very powerful look. Another year or two and I hope she will be a contender.

Henry

[l113892]

I have two Marudo kohaku. Marudo worked for Dainichi for 18 years, as I understand it, so I believe he has Dainichi stock for parents. I believe the parent kohaku Marudo uses are Sensuke & Dainichi but from the pictures obviously he matches different bloodlines together to produce very different results. Here are the pictures, both are female.

[johnsmith]

Hi Mike, yep, I like Marudo fish alot ( I own one very nice kohaku of his)- especially the kohaku. Honestly I think of his fish as Dainichi fish just like I think of Shinatro's sankes as Matsunosuke.

My bud Ian Stewardson had a KILLER kohaku from Marudo- really amazing Dainichi like beni- soft and delicate but very very bright on white ground that was like liquid porcelain.

Its that old Innovator and Imitator thing I think? JR


PS. Mike, what is the story on the fish in your Avatar?

[l113892]

The fish in my avatar is a Hiroi(Kuniyasu) Goshiki I purchased in '02 as a nissai. The fish is female but has prematurely stopped growing. The fish was entered in the Louisville Show this year. One of the judges offered to buy the fish. I've never had that happen to me in a show before. The fish wins many friendship awards as you can well imagine.