questions about tancho

[bekko]

Is there a tancho gene? Is a tancho more than just a kohaku with a single round hi plate on the head? Is a tancho more likely to appear within a batch of siblings than a kohaku (or kohaku-like koi) with a single round hi plate placed elsewhere on the body? Does a tancho have a different type of skin than its kohaku siblings? Does a tancho have a different body shape than its kohaku siblings? Is the difference between a kohaku and a benigoi just a reflection of how the pattern developed in the fry (without a distinctive genetic component) while the tancho pattern is genetically preordained? Was tancho developed strictly through selective breeding, or was the process aided by a naturally-occurring genetic propensity? Would it have been more difficult to selectively breed a koi with a single round hi plate on the back instead of on the head?

If the answer to some of these questions is ‘yes’, is it possible that a similar tancho gene exists in goldfish? Are the red capped oranda, red cap comet, red cap swallow tail, red cap pearl scale, red crest lionhead, and the frequency of tancho wakin just a case of parallel evolution (or rather, parallel breeding programs) or is there a genetic propensity which has assisted development of these varieties?

-stevehopk ins

[MikeM]

Don't know, Steve. But I've read interviews with more than one breeder who believed there is a tendency for Kohaku with maruten markings to produce more Tancho. Patterning is genetically linked, but like black and white cows, it has a randomness, too.

[luke frisbee]

Hoppy,
when looking in mags of past japanese shows I have seen alot of similarities in the patterns of the higher placed participants..... this could be due to judges' preferences, but a judge can only choose from what hobbyists enter in the show, yet Hobbyist can only choose from what they have purchased already (unless they want to just buy the trophy straight up...which is much more honest in some cases), and the hobbyists can only purchase what the breeders/dealers have offered, and the breeders can only offer from what they have saved after culling, and FINALLY the breeders can only choose from what patterns the koi have thrown.
For those that have it...look on page 66 & 67 of K2K, especially the three on page 66...Shintaro gosanke...now look at the patterns...especially the hi on the heads...and the front edge of that hi...there were 100,000's of fry to choose from, but these were THERE at they beginning and eventually chosen to carry forward by the breeder.
All aspects of a koi have a genetic base..it is the genes that have to interact and react to the environment.
(side bar not to be discussed here ,,i will start another thread to deal with it but....... I have heard that koi patterns will be different than the donor koi in cloned koi... I have given this thought, and can only figure that the pattern is determined from some environmental stimulation while the koi is in the egg....remember this is another issue and I will start a new thread)

[dick benbow]

there are some pairs that breed more tanchos for their color variety then others.
There was a breeder in hamamatsu that claimed to have a pair that threw only tanchos but that was only rumor as far as i could tell. if you got to him early in the year he was good about having lots of tanchos to ship so he had figured something out.

goldfish genetics and koi are very different so the experiences are not interchangeable....

I quess what still gets a chuckle out of me is people asking to buy a male and female tancho so they can begin breeding them...i don't mention that to belittle anyone cause we all have to start somewhere but what it does prove is that we believe it's possible.....

in kohaku the white has to be so very white and the tancho really large sized
that a really good one is like anything else...few and far between....