koi patterns "set" in the egg?

[bekko]

But Luke, couldn't pattern also be determined after hatching, during early development. Chormatophores start to appear in a few days. However, the "final" pattern (if such a thing exists) may not be decided or preordained untill some time later. Perhaps it is a process which begins in the egg and progresses, at a diminishing rate, until death. Its pretty clear that a shimmie is not predestined to appear and it's appearance is influenced by environment. But at what point is the precise location of the shimmie determined? Pre-hatching, in the fry, as the shimmie develops?

For what it's worth, environment (especially temperature) has been found to have a huge influence on pattern development in goldfish. A pair which almost appears to breed true (no such thing) in one spawn may segregate all over the place in the next spawn. Yeah, I know, goldfish genetics and koi genetics are different. However, they are more similar than koi versus cow genetics.

-steveh

[luke frisbee]

Hoppy,
I thought like you think, but I think that if koi pattern could be influenced as the koi grow that Breeders would have identified that, and had a handle on ow to draw out a preferred pattern.


El,
yep i agree with most of what you've said but what I just said to hoppy is a reply to you as well.

And I understand the whole blueprint genome is in each cell, but i feel that what color that cell is going to do is not determined late in a koi's development. I feel as though the color pattern is too intense and has too dramatic a demarcation...if the process happens later then the pattern would be gradual....probably....that might be what happens in natural carp?

[bekko]

Yeah but Luke, look back to Maurice's photos of a koi (can't remember whether it was kohaku or sanke) where the scattered, weak hi sort of contracted and congealed over time into a thich beni plate with good kiwa. I would have said the young fish was junk and thrown it to the pigs but Maurice saw the furture and, indeed, it turned into a nice one. If the skin cells had been pre-programmed for one color or another from egg, then it wouldn't have happened that way.

Then too, there are Brandwood's recent remarks about managing ponds differently for kohaku versus showa. OK, it might have been sanke versus showa or something else, but you get the idea.

-stevehopki ns

[luke frisbee]

Hoppy,
the cells could have been there already....like in GF...the pattern matures as the koi becomes older....
And the reason....as a juvenile koi/carp live in shallow water and therefore need to be camoflaged different than when they grow and move to more open water.
So the mechanism is encoded within the koi/carp to not be the adult pattern as a youth