Koi Food - some thoughts

[Chris Neaves]

Hi to every one,



I noticed some postings on koi food below and would like to contribute some ideas and thoughts.



Pellet size:

Feed larger pellets. There are water soluble vitamins in koi food and these can leach out quite rapidly if the food is not consumed in the first few minutes. Smaller pellets will loose water soluble vitamins at a faster rate.



Take the quantity of pellets you want to feed for the day and dampen them. You could use warm water in a cup filled with pellets. Let them stand for 5 seconds then pour the water off. Leave the pellets to stand for about 20 minutes. Feed to the koi collection.



In this way you replicate the koi's natural environment where everything they eat is moist (wet) except for the pellets we feed them!



Small and large koi can consume damp pellets. They will also eat more at each feed. Hard dry pellets are taken into the mouth and the koi - especially the younger ones swim off to chew the single pellet. But observe them with damp pellets....


15 years ago I achieved 70cm with a number of koi in my collection in 4 years with this method of feeding. In a shallow pond of 80cm by the way.

Less waste:

Highly digestible pet foods are becoming a problem. It appears that there are more and more diseases of the gut reported in animals.



What does your doctor recommend for you - eat more roughage. This is indigestible matter that stimulates the movement of the food through the gut. It keeps you healthy. So why do we not apply the same principal to our koi?



If you are worried about the solid or liquid waste - redesign the filter to cope with everything you throw at it - that’s it's job. Either increase the size or reduce the number of koi you have in the pond.



There is another factor against highly digestible koi foods that produce little or not solid waste. Do we really want the koi to digest and absorb everything in the pellets? After all most koi foods have about 30 - 35% carbohydrate in them. Then there are the artificial colourants, the preservatives, the binders etc.



Regards,

Chris

[keokoi]

Thanks Chris all really good information..

[PapaBear]

Like any other discussion there are many sides to the issues.
You make some good points, but here are a few to ponder as well.
Unless your pond is a sterile enclosure devoid of any and all plantlife or insects your Koi are grazing on various bits of carpet algae, flies, mosquitoes, crickets, beetles, etc... all day long. If you do have such a comletely sterile pond I pity you and your poor miserable Koi. (I found a tarantula torso floating in my pond the other day. Abdomen and legs completely eaten down to the nub )
Dry food does contain water soluble nutrients that can leach out. How does presoaking them and letting them stand for 20-30 min not cause the same leaching/oxidizing to occur in an even more rapid fashion?
The high end Koi foods discussed as being "highly degestible" on the forum happen to be the same ones fed by many of the top breeders in Japan using automated feeders (no presoaking) to their tategoi in growout ponds. They seem to be doing OK with it...

[kingkong]

Take an average food like a Purina product. Put spinach, fresh garlic, sardines and whatever in a blender and liquidfy it. Pour that soup on dry pellets. Let soak for 1 hour then put on tray and fan dry until moist and sticky, say another 3 hours. Feed this to your koi and see if they prefer the dry pellet out of the bag or the pre-wet with additives. Caution, were your rubber boots cause your going to get wet.

[dick benbow]

thank-you Chris for your thoughts on food. I think differing opinions are good as it challenges our thought processes combined with our own experiences.

I think to make a point for the readers not posters looking to learn...in this hobby you will find many roads will get you to Rome. No one shares their experiences deliberately trying to confuse or give erronious information. I think the value in a forum like this is you get the info you need to help you arrive at where you want to go with what makes sense to you.

I know as an individual who has had many kinds of pets, no living thing extracts total food value from food as individuals are different one to another, and as they age things also change. For koi specifically i think it's very important to consider the food content as appropriate with temperature as their ability to digest and use is dependant on metabolism which is controlled by temperature.

[junglegeorge12]

Just a couple of htings I noted, papabear's comment about the leaching on pellets that are moist, wont happen cuz they are not immersed, just wet, all it does is moisten and soften...

On the 'what breeders in Japan do' thing, lots of breeders do lots of different things or don't do them for various reasons. One factor may simply be time. Some of them may actually do just what Chris posted. However, even if they don't, that does not negate Chris' observation that the koi eat more pellets more quickly when they are softened with moisture, and that that can contribute to growth rates.

[l113892]

Thank you Chris. I am a long time fan. I hate that I missed the opportunity to meet you when you came to the states.

I have a freind that tends to jump on every bit of information he reads on koi food. I suggested to him that he read everything that you post and little else.

[Chris Neaves]

Hi Larry,

Not sure where the sterile pond came into the discussion ……

Your comments on the koi grazing on the microorganisms and algae are perfectly valid and a very important part of koi keeping. (unless you classify tarantulas as microorganisms!)

Your comments on dry pellets are absolutely valid. Letting them stand in water for 20 – 30 minutes is a big no-no. Letting them float in the pond for 20 – 30 minutes is also out. A high percentage of the water soluble vitamins will leach out under those conditions.

But dampening them with a mist spray or alternatively taking a mug of pellets and filling it with warm water then throwing the water off after 5 seconds will work very well. Now let the pellets stand for 20 minutes or so. (with out the water which you have thrown off). The pellets are damp but retain their shape and nutrients.

Paste food is simply pellets (or extruded koi food that has been ground to a fine powder) Water is added to the paste food then fed to the koi. Same thing. Good results.

The oxidizing of some ingredients in koi food occurs with a reaction with the atmosphere and would take longer than 30 minutes. The yeasts could activate with moisture but again this would take longer. This is a reason to keep all koi foods away from moisture and where possible seal off from the atmosphere in a canister or drum.

High end foods …. I really must question this. No koi breeder / commercial seller of koi can afford to feed the high end koi foods and sell their koi at a reasonable price or even a high price. When you cost it out it does not add up. I wonder if they don’t take a packet of xyz koi food out when western visitors are there purchasing koi. It’s a good sales pitch. A packet of “breeders” koi food was brought back from Japan and we analysed it. Nothing you and I can’t feed our koi at a reasonable price. This is the food koi breeders were buying in bulk from their local processing plant not from high end koi food manufacturers. Some of these koi feeds are made according to their own specifications.



Hi Dick,

Good to hear from you.

When you mention feeding food content as appropriate with temperature were you referring to wheat germ foods? (or so called wheat germ foods)



Hi Mike,

Regrettably I did not make it to the States. Really sad about that. I have met some wonderful, genuine people via the internet in the States and will do my best to meet them one all day.



Regards,

Chris

[Chris Neaves]

Hi Larry,

Not sure where the sterile pond came into the discussion ……

Your comments on the koi grazing on the microorganisms and algae are perfectly valid and a very important part of koi keeping. (unless you classify tarantulas as microorganisms!)

Your comments on dry pellets are absolutely valid. Letting them stand in water for 20 – 30 minutes is a big no-no. Letting them float in the pond for 20 – 30 minutes is also out. A high percentage of the water soluble vitamins will leach out under those conditions.

But dampening them with a mist spray or alternatively taking a mug of pellets and filling it with warm water then throwing the water off after 5 seconds will work very well. Now let the pellets stand for 20 minutes or so. (with out the water which you have thrown off). The pellets are damp but retain their shape and nutrients.

Paste food is simply pellets (or extruded koi food that has been ground to a fine powder) Water is added to the paste food then fed to the koi. Same thing. Good results.

The oxidizing of some ingredients in koi food occurs with a reaction with the atmosphere and would take longer than 30 minutes. The yeasts could activate with moisture but again this would take longer. This is a reason to keep all koi foods away from moisture and where possible seal off from the atmosphere in a canister or drum.

High end foods …. I really must question this. No koi breeder / commercial seller of koi can afford to feed the high end koi foods and sell their koi at a reasonable price or even a high price. When you cost it out it does not add up. I wonder if they don’t take a packet of xyz koi food out when western visitors are there purchasing koi. It’s a good sales pitch. A packet of “breeders” koi food was brought back from Japan and we analysed it. Nothing you and I can’t feed our koi at a reasonable price. This is the food koi breeders were buying in bulk from their local processing plant not from high end koi food manufacturers. Some of these koi feeds are made according to their own specifications.



Hi Dick,

Good to hear from you.

When you mention feeding food content as appropriate with temperature were you referring to wheat germ foods? (or so called wheat germ foods)



Hi Mike,

Regrettably I did not make it to the States. Really sad about that. I have met some wonderful, genuine people via the internet in the States and will do my best to meet them one all day.



Regards,

Chris

[dick benbow]

Chris, It's really good to have you posting here! Your brought a smile to my lips.

You knew exactly what i was talking about. What's funny is the same people who obliviously feed their koi ingredients at lower temps will check out the food packaging for themselves as health conscious and shun anything with stuff they know not!

here in the pacific NW we have cool springs and falls and it's amazing what I see being fed with temps in the lower 60's....would you believe silkworm? LOL!