Beni types and colors and breeders discussion

[aquitori]

JR, back to the thread...Seems people are interested in the different types of beni in Kohak...Could you explain the types that are availible.

[johnsmith]

Sure. Aside from male and female type beni, beni comes in many different color combinations-

beni or red, can vary from light orange to deep purple and every shade inbetween. The 'shades' are created by combinations of color cells within the epidermis, dermis and deep dermis. My usual way to describe HOW the color coats each scale is to ask the listener to picture a bowl of potato chip dip! Place four chips in the dip and sink them half way down into the dip. Now pull the chips out of the dip most of the way ( about 3/4 of the way) and lay them down on the dip overlaping one another - like fish scales. See how the dip coats the top half/ bottom half of each chip? This represents how the skin of a koi overlapse each scale and coats both the top and the bottom of scale as well as skin itself ( the dip itself). And each coat of dip represents two layers of skin ( the epidermis and the dermis).
The beni takes on shades of color based on the combination of color cells and the repetition of color below and above the scale.

as far as color cell combinations goes- we have

Orange
orange/ orange
dilute orange
red
red/orange
red/red
purple/red
yellow/ orange
pink/orange
pink/red
brown/red
brown/ orange

many lines will base their beni on one of these combinations. The most evolved is the yellow/orange. But some combinations of red/orange and pink/red are really quite special.

Lastly, we have the look of the edge of beni plates themselves. sashi, or leading edge and Kiwa, or trailing edge. These looks can be strain specific or simply generic looks. Scalloped edge or razor cut/ sashi blur or no blur at all. They can be telling finishing touches or really mean very little based on the strain you are looking at.
JR

[johnsmith]

Jungle, as you probably know, male and female fish have different skin- in terms of thickness and texture. No breeder knows for sure if a tosai is male or female but can make some pretty sure bets based on 'how male' or 'how female' a fish's skin is and therefore the corresponding shiro ground and beni color/finish/ formation.
You may have heard the terms ' hard white' and 'soft white' used when discussing fundamental sexual orientation differences in young koi? A male is typically hard white or bright white with vivid beni at a very young age. And that purple/red beni is a common look- an very popular in the smaller sizes.
There is no question in that a male fish finishes much quicker than a female. This is one reason why male fish make good small type show fish. The color not only thickens and finishes quicker but the kiwa gets 'tight' at an early age. This has the effect of making for a very uniform/even look to the beni from head to tail. It is typically one thick single coat of color and can fool a lot of people who imagine that the fish will just grow like this and look teh same at 28 inches. Very attractive in a fish from 6- 18 inches and then very unimpressive in a larger koi.
JR

[junglegeorge12]

Pretty good way to describe it. Now I am hungry for some chips and guacamole dip, and all I have is crackers, salsa, and cheese dip. If I combine them I will have the red and yellow in my tummy. Or is that cheese orange? I can't remember.

How would say tomoin and sensuke set in the middle of that description?

[junglegeorge12]

OK, here are the koi lineages and breeder info.

The two on the left are from Genjiro koi farm, males, probably from the same spawning. JR noted their age already.

The two in the middle are BOTH from Sakai of Hiroshima and have the same age and are the children of Rainbow Rose and her half sister. The redder one on the left is from Rainbow Rose. Their sex is claimed to be 'gauranteed female' and is as aquitori, JR, and dinh noted. Their mothers had the same mom, Rose. So they are only one generation apart, yet look at the vast difference in color. I intentionally took both their pics from the same site that is reputable for accurate color depictions so no concerns about 'fixed' photos. Those are the real color differences. Their patterns are reversed but are not far apart either, interestingly.

The one on the right is from Igarishi, female. She should finish nicely, JR noted the kiwa.

Now here is my thinking in terms of what I like and my personal goals. I do not think the way I think and what I prefer are or should be any sort of standard to follow, it is just my personal taste and I am sure many will disagree and have perfectly valid other viewpoints and preferences.

Although many who frequent shows in Japan feel the orange is a better and more stable color as JR noted in his post too, it is not my favorite shade of koi. I prefer a deeper red. Anywhere from where the Genjiro on the left is to where the sakai on the left is is my sweet spot, personally.
However, stability is vital to having constant high quality output as a breeder. So the need to have the stable orange in there solidly is step 1, then add red to it, imho. As you can see was done from Rose to Rainbow Rose's offspring. Part of that is culling and part is fathering selection.

Any more notes or thoughts from you guys would be appreciated.

Stan, it is quite possible that the breeder you mentioned has koi from this same sought after line and is why you thought they came from there, those similarities in their offspring might be closer than the similarities between the two Rose grandchildren in terms of actual dna, depending on how they get their parent koi and where from. So don't feel your guess was 'dumb', it may be 'smarter' than the actual truth in some respects.
Since I don't know for sure where they got their parents, that part is speculation, but it could hold truth, or at least food for thought. In terms of taste for color, we both highly appreciate the red I think stan. Alot of serious koi folks would strongly disagree, as the orange(yellow/orange) is considered a more developed and stable color as Jr pointed out. I think in recent years we are seeing appreciation for the deeper reds grow and more tolerance in judging circles due to that. As well the stability folks like Genjiro and others have added to the redder colors is helping that to become a major factor in more red apreciation and respect.

Thx for humoring me you guys, and I would really like to hear your tastes and thoughts and knowledge too.

Out of curiosity, which color combos do you appreciate more JR, dinh, and aquitori and any others who want to pipe in?

[dinh]

Quote: Originally Posted by junglegeorge12 JR your points are valid, but I also think color and beni discussion can be done without knowing male female etc, I would enjoy hearing you say more about the male female differences and issues. ....

I bought 2 tosai Momotaro Kohaku three years ago, same parents. Didn't know their sexes when bought them, but both had the same Beni at that time. After around two years in my pond. Their Beni are very different. Of course, one male and one female .....

--Dinh

[dinh]

This is a very interesting subject.... Especially when both JR and JG are part of the discussion that make it more and more interesting.... I really meant it.

As specified in English by JR. In Japanese, many terms have been used to express the red color on koi such as aka, akairo, sekishoku, hi, hiiro, beni, beniiro, koushoku, shinku, matsuka, or senkoushoku etc... Mainly, they are different tones of the red.... I hope some one have pictures of koi to represent each tone.

JR, I love all kind of tones if they are excellent quality tones.... ;-))

[junglegeorge12]

In what ways are the beni different and how is the kiwa tightening differently on the two? If one is darker than the other, which one's shade do you like better, the lighter or darker, and which one has better shiro (assuming soft porcelain white is the goal)?

I would love to see pics of them Dinh, Momotaro produces such stunning koi and size, and has a deeper red set in their lineage as well.

JR- It makes me nervous whenever folks start using the word 'tate' anything and are also selling something. I have seen things called 'tateshita' that wound winning impressive show awards and many koi called 'tategoi' that turned into an embarrassing joke, and unfairly it seems to be the poor hobbiest who trusted his dealer and proudly told everyone about his great new addition who gets embarrassed. Don't pick a koi cuz a breeder calls it 'tate' anything. By the way, just because a Japanese breeder picks a koi to grow on does NOT mean it is 'true tategoi'. It means he thinks it MAY POSSIBLY have potential for either tategoi OR high end sale later on at far greater value than present. NO breeder sells his best koi at 1 or 2 yrs old. Although saying it and making folks think it sure does hike the prices up quickly. I recently read a story about a man who suddenly became willing to 'pay any price' simply because a breeder expressed reluctance to sell a few better quality tosai- TOSAI!!! They keep them to either later win shows and bring recognition to their breeding program or to use as parent lineage. imho there is no such thing as a 1 or 2 yr old 'true' tategoi. It takes 3-5 years of growth to even have a clear idea at all. Buy it because YOU believe it has potential and know how that line tends to develop and know it's real value and potential on the up and down side.

[dinh]

One of my Momotaro Kohaku is now in my buddy Duke's pond. He doesn't think I do have a good koi keeping skill to take care of the female;-)) I will take pictures after the holiday...

Anyway, both have excellent kiwa and shasi but have very different tones. One with very deep blood red and other looks like orange/red...

[koiczar]

Very interesting thread you guys.

I have to agree with JR on this post. Beni is subject to many things genetic and environmental. One thing JR touched on but then didn't get mentioned again was about the shiroji. High quality soft white can make hi look differently, especially based on the fishes age. As the skin thickens, the shiroji also becomes denser (after all it is a color too). As the fish's head skin thickens, it cleans up all the tonal qualities based on the visibility of the skull showing through. When the shiroji of the head and body blend together seamlessly, the hi shows itself off with a deeper richer tonal quality as well. That is, if the hi is of very high quality.

My personal favorite is a orange-based beni such as Dainichi or Torazo. It continues to come as the fish matures and gains weight. One layer at a time it improves. Those are the type of fish I select because I enjoy watching the developmental stages in my pond. That allows me to find out for myself which line does the best in my pond and water conditions.

Mike