Beni types and colors and breeders discussion

[Regenmeneer]

Quote: My personal favorite is a orange-based beni such as Dainichi or Torazo. It continues to come as the fish matures and gains weight. One layer at a time it improves.

Mike,

do you mean Hoshi Beni?

[PapaBear]

Good thread, and very informative.
The qualities of hi are such a matter of personal taste that the first impression sucks most hobbiests in before they look deeper at the real quality of depth and stability. To me the real quality shines through when a Koi is selected in a mud pond environment and doesn't fall apart when it goes in someones backyard pond as so many seem to do.
Personally, I enjoy all shades of hi as each has a unique flavor. For me the test I need to pass is recognizing the "signs" of depth vs superficial (and temporary) beni.
My spring/summer activities have been another learning lab for this. Weather and work have delayed completion of our pond re-model, so our Koi have been in their temporary home longer than originally anticipated. The upside to that has been the ability to observe which of them have maintained their hi/sumi/shiro well and which have faded in the light colored pool liner. The second part of the lesson will come when they go back to a dark liner environment and we get to see how well the faded ones recover.

[johnsmith]

Good beni does not have to be yellow orange based. But the best beni happens to be that color cell combination. This brings up a very good point- we often hear/say " O the Japanese like that orang beni but we Americans like the red beni" . It is not that the Japanese 'like' the shade of orange. But rather, that shade of orange is often associated with the best beni. In other words, its not about the color or shade, its about about the characteristics of that particular shade.
How do you define 'good beni"? Good beni is beni that a) lasts and B) improves with time. The Japanese people, and most other Asian cultures for that matter, put great value on quality. And one important truth of quality is that is enduring. It is also a store of value. It is also a good investment as it will improve. This is a fundamental Asian value ( European also to some degree- see Germans). So it is of no surprise that beni quality is the same mindset.
Yellow/orange beni develops slowly, it is typically laid down in layers over time.. If it is on the right shiroji ( Jitai concept) it will be enhanced further. But getting a koi with the right frame and the right shiro ground and the right quality yellow orange beni in one living animal is not all that easy! So rarity comes into play here as well.
The opposite of this, would be purple/red beni. This is typically a single dense coat of beni and often most intense on male fish. It does not last in terms of beauty, and is considered a cheap beni. But it is highly sought after by exporters and sells like hot cakes at home. When young the purple beni is attractive but in time all luster is lost and the dull purple effect is very unattractive.
Good beni develops differently than most other beni forms. It tends to look very unorganized in young fish. This is due to tiny 'red pimples' within the over all rather light beni plates. The 'pimples' represent next years color formation and the color will spread from those points or stars. It is this light orange red that will BECOME a brighter and deeper orange red with age. In truth, most of the jumbo show stoppers were much lighter orange when the were tosai.
JR

[PapaBear]

The "pimples" explanation clicks. I noticed last year that many of our kohaku fry developed persimmon pimples on the yellowish/orange base which slowly receded/consolodated toward the pimples to form the patterns. The Maruten Sanke fry on the other hand had a more purplish/red which is now fading to orange and seems a bit thin.

[l113892]

Marudo female

[Regenmeneer]

JR,

what you are describing is Hoshi Beni. Could you elaborate on this, like which bloodlines will produce Hoshi Beni, development in males and females separately?

It's my impression that only few koi, ie only the top of a spawn, will display Hoshi Beni. Can you concur with this?

[johnsmith]

Thanks MIKE, THAT'S THE TICKET!


The look of beni that is muti-coated in nature is a man made evolutionary one. Beni cells set up in the epidermis first ( really the only skin layer young fry have). As the dermis differenciates and expands, you see color cells building in the derms and in very good specimens- the deep dermis. This mutilevel arrangement is what makes for the contradiction in good koi- a delicate look to the hi plate but very thick and deep at the same time. Ther is a second dimension to high class beni- that is the presence of luster cells in the epidermis. All of this is a far cry from basic red in basic kohaku.

The lines can confuse the academic exercise however. Since breeding is a form of gambling where the 'lemons' line up with the 'plums' in a random fashion. So some lines, for instance will always have a razor cut edge to the trailing edge of the hi plate, while other lines will always tend to have a scalloped edge to the hi plate. We can 'say' that scalloped edge is more rare or refined- but that does not mean that the lines that have razor cut edge are inferior.
The point here is that lines are different and are sometime compromises because the line carriers some other very desirable trait ( body or shiro ground, for instance). Or it can simply mean that other lines develop different yet the finished product will stand up to any competition. Once again, the reason why koi shows are so important in the feed back process.

Specifically, Toshio Sakai has lead the pack in introducing the complex beni to the breeder community. Guys like Momotaro have run with the passed ball. Dainichi beni, a very different and beautiful beni, develops differently but the concept of a growth of dermis and color cells leading to a delicate but deep beni plate is still the same.
There are many failures of beni and throw-back looks along the way as you suggested but the nature of the beni should be the same as the tategoi reach age four or so. If the breeder is crossing lines and they are still unstable, and if the nature of the cross is extreme, it is not surprising to see a normal genetic phenotype distribution in a group ( 50%, 25%, 25%). It is not unusual to see certain crosses produce beautiful young gosanke that tend to decline in beauty at an earlier age than the line bred strain.

JR

[junglegeorge12]

Very good points JR. That is one reason it is important for breeders to not only look for the type of beni they know will be stable, but to check the lineages of their parents to assure that stability will be inherent in their line. The two parents have to be 'compatible' in that sense.

What was pointed out about the future development and looking at the center color in each scale is so important. It is also important that the dimpling is even throughout the hi plates, as in teh future this means they will come to the same color and mature at the same point when ti is finished. When one hi plate is dimpled with a rich red in the center of each scale, and another one is an even color throughout, that is a warning sign that those hi plates will not finish together and the one with no dimpling may be on the verge of breaking up.

As JR pointed out many 'lines' out there really come from the same sources and crossing them is not really 'crossing' in terms of a whole different bloodline. Others out there are completely different bloodlines and crossing them does cause a certain % of instability which should be readily visually identifiable in the hi plates. Then when those offspring are culled and interbred the desirable characterstics are stabilized and the offspring go up in terms of % of quality for that line per spawning.
"crossing' is not always a new line, but injecting desirable characterstics into a line. Many show winners were exactly such breedings that fell into the % of offspring that did not have stability problems. Then with time and over generations the line is now considered 'stabilized' as they have had time to breed in and out characteristics (via injection and culling), and breed from within the line itself to get certain 'flavors' etc as you can see with Rose's grandchildren.

I totally agree with JR that too solid of a hi plate in young koi tends to indicate the hi plate may not be too thick and may not last. Although with yearlings it is hard to tell at times. 2yr olds should exhibit the dimpling and definitely 3 yr olds. If one hi plate is dimpled and another is not, often the 'weaker' looking dimpled one finishes nicel and the solid one breaks into pieces. There are a few exceptions to that I have seen, but most do fall into that trend.

Can you tell us more about tomoin, sadazo (sanke), and sensuke and where they play into this picture JR? I have read and seen differing viewpoints on that and would like to hear your take on that issue and the bigger picture of hi and beni development. What do you think the future holds?

[saratogatan]

http://www.sentulpark-koi.com/

[johnsmith]

Hi Jungle. I think we are back to the idea of innovator vs. imitator? And imitator is NOT a pejorative! Just another role in the advancement of koi genetics.



There is no question that certain guys in Japan have made a nice living out of using certain very compatible crosses. Perhaps the two most common crosses used by imitators is the Dainichi/ Sensuke cross for kohaku and the Matsunosuke/ Sadazo cross for sanke.

These are very nice fish albeit usually similar to the Dainichi and Matsunosuke foundation as an ideal. Size and color is always the goal.



Tomoin? I don't think it exists any more- not in the true ‘living’ sense? The old timers say they can 'see' it? I can't. JR