Soragoi

[carolyn swanson]

Marie,

You go, girl!!!!!

[KoiCop]

If one is not careful, one can fall subject to the fallacious notion that koi varieties are like canine breeds -- which they are not.

Varietal classification is a benching decision -- one which is made by a specific person about a specific koi at a specific time. As such, any koi's variety is subject to change.

A tancho sanke can "become" a bekko and later it can "become" a shiro muji. A poodle cannot "become" a dachshund; nor can it later "become" a mastiff.

While one can say that a particular soragoi was produced from an ochiba X ochiba cross, the particular soragoi might have been "born" an ochiba and both parents might "become" soragaoi.

In which case, it would be proper to say (of the selfsame three koi) that the ochiba was produced from an soragoi X soragoi cross! Are we having fun yet?

[Sangreaal]

Quote: Originally Posted by KoiCop If one is not careful, one can fall subject to the fallacious notion that koi varieties are like canine breeds -- which they are not. Varietal classification is a benching decision -- one which is made by a specific person about a specific koi at a specific time. As such, any koi's variety is subject to change. A tancho sanke can "become" a bekko and later it can "become" a shiro muji. A poodle cannot "become" a dachshund; nor can it later "become" a mastiff. While one can say that a particular soragoi was produced from an ochiba X ochiba cross, the particular soragoi might have been "born" an ochiba and both parents might "become" soragaoi. In which case, it would be proper to say (of the selfsame three koi) that the ochiba was produced from an soragoi X soragoi cross! Are we having fun yet?

I agree with you to a point, Don. Koi definately have their own characteristics, and of course they are dissimilar to mammals in that they have different genetic quirks compared to mammals. But the change from bekko to shiro muji is a change in color only, not a change in the structure of the koi like a change from dachshund to mastiff, or poodle to dachshund. However, I can attest that mammals can and do change coat colors (and texture) depending on as many factors as it takes to change the color of koi.

However, I am finding with koi that they have been developed from many different types and there are a LOT of recessive genes we cannot see in them that can come into play. For instance, I was recently offered a lovely lemon and white hariwake that I was considering for crossbreeding with soragoi to create an ochiba. This koi was the offspring of yamabuki ogon and sanke. Now if I bred that koi to, say, a soragoi, I would not just be dealing with what's showing on the face of the koi, but also with that sanke which probably came from a kohaku spawn and the additional solid color of the ogon, which will certainly interact with the genes of another solid colored koi. The conformation difference between a hunking soragoi and a more refined patterned koi seems also problematic. Therefore, by diluting the genes further with soragoi would probaby produce a wildly variant spawn, more so than I would wish because it would take several more generations to even come close to "locking in" the ochiba traits I would be trying to achieve. So even though that hariwake was a stunning fish with a great conformation, the "dilution factor" was a bit too much for me to want to start with.

So yes Don, you are so very right about the complexity of the issue of breeding koi for color and type. It is still do-able, IMHO. It will just take a lot of time and generations to do, IF it's done right. Done wrong, and it will never happen.

And yes, this is delightfully fun!

Marie

[dick benbow]

One of the things that are interesting from a breeding genetics stand point....more color varieties do best when they are bred back to the same color varieties. Some you can bring somethin new in and create something unique tho not uniformly...only a few fantastic individuals, With ochibas when they first came out they had better patterns and the patterns held. Now that we're over a coupla decades with them, so many loose their patterns quickly...and not from stress but genetics.It didn't happen till about 10 generations of ochiba to ochiba. reminds me of beni kumpnryu....to breed the two together is to kid yourself for something wonderful. Got to go back to the initial cross for good ones. Same with goromo's, I have not seen a really good Ai koromo in a long time....

[MikeM]

Here is one for comment.... note the black "ticking" at the base of each scale.

[MikeM]

And, another for comment...a male with less distinct "ticking" and some soft brown tones on the head.

In looking at these two, what are the points of interest to be considered in making a purchase decision?

[gregbickal]

I have a female gin rin soragoi and male gin rin chagoi, both that I got from Hirashin as 13" two year olds. They both grew to 21" in their 3rd year. They appear to be keeping up with each other (this is year 4). They do seem to darken during the summer and lighten during the winter.

I have spawned the soragoi with a male kohaku and have many ochiba babies. My soragoi has a few brown spots on her pecs.

My Soragoi and Ochiba babies from last year reached 10" in the first year.

[PapaBear]

Koi genetics are an oddity of nature, primarily because we have interrupted nature. Every Kohaku, Utsuri, Bekko, Showa, etal, has recessive genes capable of reproducing virtually any non-doitsu variety of Koi you might care to name. Doitsu parents can reproduce non-doitsu offspring even if there is only one generation of non-german ancestral linkage in the family tree. We greatly improve our odds of producing Kohaks in large numbers by using Kohaku parents, but you'll be culling a lot of non kohaku fry if kohaks is all you want to see in the fry pond.
Last year my Ginrin Aka Bekko sire and Sanke dam produced Ochibas, Kohaku's, Utsuri's, Bekkos, Sankes, Asagi's, Paruchina's, Orenji's, Yamabuki's, Utsuri's... Not the kind of fry you might look for in such a pairing, but the genetic material for all of them was lurking in their collective pasts. Truth be told, a multitude of mutts were in the mix, but quite a few of them have been turning out quite well. It's good for us to remember that the first "Koi" were genetic aberrations produced from ordinary food carp.

Oh Mike,
I like both of the Soragoi you pictured. The "ticking" on each has its own distinctive character and I wouldn't mind having them both .

[Sangreaal]

Quote: Originally Posted by dick benbow One of the things that are interesting from a breeding genetics stand point....more color varieties do best when they are bred back to the same color varieties. Some you can bring somethin new in and create something unique tho not uniformly...only a few fantastic individuals, With ochibas when they first came out they had better patterns and the patterns held. Now that we're over a coupla decades with them, so many loose their patterns quickly...and not from stress but genetics.It didn't happen till about 10 generations of ochiba to ochiba. reminds me of beni kumpnryu....to breed the two together is to kid yourself for something wonderful. Got to go back to the initial cross for good ones. Same with goromo's, I have not seen a really good Ai koromo in a long time....

That's why I chose the ochiba to work with (and WHY I favor pedigrees so the breedings do not become a further exercise in diluting the genetic material one is working with--I know, I am relentless *LOL*). Breeding to produce anything fish, mammal, bird, or reptile, is like weaving textiles or the finest Persian rug--one thread off can effect the rest of the product, and the flaw begets problems in everything that comes after it.

Marie

[Sangreaal]

Quote: Originally Posted by MikeM Here is one for comment.... note the black "ticking" at the base of each scale.

Now that's interesting--the black ticking runs in a meandering pattern down the koi's back. At first I was thinking that perhaps it might be fukurin developing, but not all scales have it. Sure would like to see a close-up....

Marie