Koi Food - Some Thoughts part 2

[johnsmith]

*** Corection--That's right. White fish meal is NOT the whole fish - but rather scrapes or waste from the white fish or hake and it is processed right on the ship ( factory ships) and is considered VERY fresh ( although not considered for human consumption). White fish meal can contain 55 to 65 % protein. It is also rich in lipids and vitamins. BUT it is not fortified with fish soluables as there is no way to do that aboard ship.

Fish meal is based on the 'whole fish' and is a catch all term and can vary greatly depending on species and preparation. The protein content can run as high as 71 %. There is a cross over here with brands like Norwegian fish meal actually being white fish meal ( whole white fish), although not usually processed aboard the ship.
The offal meals are high in ash content and also about 55% protein. because this is not whole fish, its quality is lower than white fish meal.

JR

What I also found in reseaching this is that Temperature for processing fish meal is a huge consideration in terms of nutritional value- as you might expect ( but maybe not exactly for THE reason you are thinking IE vitamin and enzyme distruction). There are 'low temperature' fish meals ( heated below 70 C). anything heater above 90C is considered a poor fish meal. This turns out to be the factor that largely effects protein digestibility. Interesting!

[PapaBear]

Thanks to all for the good info. I'm sure I'm not the only one that will benefit from it.
Chris mentioned the "fish lure" additives and I couldn't agree more. Kind of like squirting stinkbait on a piece of dough for catfishing. They'll try to eat anything if they like the smell of it.
Another thought that pops up. I've noticed that Koi seem to like different brands/blends depending upon water chemistry. (no scientific data, just anecdotal observation) Many ponders I've corresponded with around the world have completely different results when attempting to use the exact same feed. One mans Koi will devour brand A while anothers doesn't show any interest at all, but loves brand Z. Overall water quality tests, temperatures seem to be on par with each other with the only real differences being ph/gh/kh. It would seem that naturally occuring mineral nutrients in the water itself influence exactly what they have an appetite for. Water chemistry influencing body chemistry influencing nutritional requirements. Please feel free to correct me if you think I'm barking up the wrong tree.
In the case of my pond this year I decided to try blending an un-named (non advertiser here) brand of premium high fish meal content feed along with Hikari Staple. Much to my surprise the Hikari staple is the last thing eaten. I was feeding it alone in my indoor qtank to keep wastes to a minimum and it never got the feeding response the other feed did when I tried it. Both are medium pellets, but the Hikari feed has a distinctive aroma the koi don't seem to appreciate in my water. That's not a knock on Hikari feeds as the digestibility and minimal waste production they promote seems to hold very true. I guess it just doesn't taste good where I happen to live.

[kingkong]

Quote: Originally Posted by johnsmith *** Corection--That's right. White fish meal is NOT the whole fish - but rather scrapes or waste from the white fish or hake and it is processed right on the ship ( factory ships) and is considered VERY fresh ( although not considered for human consumption). White fish meal can contain 55 to 65 % protein. It is also rich in lipids and vitamins. BUT it is not fortified with fish soluables as there is no way to do that aboard ship. Fish meal is based on the 'whole fish' and is a catch all term and can vary greatly depending on species and preparation. The protein content can run as high as 71 %. There is a cross over here with brands like Norwegian fish meal actually being white fish meal ( whole white fish), although not usually processed aboard the ship. The offal meals are high in ash content and also about 55% protein. because this is not whole fish, its quality is lower than white fish meal. JR What I also found in reseaching this is that Temperature for processing fish meal is a huge consideration in terms of nutritional value- as you might expect ( but maybe not exactly for THE reason you are thinking IE vitamin and enzyme distruction). There are 'low temperature' fish meals ( heated below 70 C). anything heater above 90C is considered a poor fish meal. This turns out to be the factor that largely effects protein digestibility. Interesting!

I think I will challenge this one. I believe white fiishmeal has come to be a generic term for many fish species. For one, there is not enough white fish caught to possibly supply all the food manufacturers that list it on their labels as 'white fish meal'.

[kingkong]

I might be in trouble with this one but for now I will stick to my guns. Purina scientist are not helping my stance. There terminology is as follows. Their 'fish meal' comes from the Herring family of fishes and they term it as "wholefish".

Now the poor 'white fish' or scientific name Caulolatilus princeps, is most commonaly called Ocean Whitefish. Purina does not use them nor could offer any information to back my premise.

[Ryan S.]

White Fish meal - Leftovers of lean fish after fillets are cut out - cod, haddocks, pollock, etc.
Fish meal - whole oily fish - herring, menhaden, anchovy, pilchard, sardines, mackerel, etc.

[kingkong]

Your right, I am wrong JR. wfmeal does come from offal of whitefish. The fisheries term whitefish is not just the Ocean Whitefish like the guy above, but includes several species of fish such as cod, whiting, haddock, hake, pollack and others. They are gutted as soon as caught. Contain oil in their livers rather than gut. Your on it Ryan.

[Clay]

PapaBear, I noticed the same things that you did about the Hikari Staple. I do believe that Hikari has one of the best R&D departments of any koi food producer. I read once that Hikari is a government subsidized company. This is the same as how the steel industry is subsidized by the Japanese government to allow it to become a leader in their industry. I feed Hikari Wheat Germ and am very please with the results.

A comment on the fish not eating based on environmental parameters. I think that the environment and the fish's life experiences have a bearing on this. Again, this isn't fact, but rather my perception of what is taking place. Rats will only eat a small portion of a new food until they get used to the source of the food. This is one thing that makes it hard to poison rats to extinction. I think that the fish, mature fish not juveniles, are shy about new foods.


One example of this is that my own fish will refuse shrimp and earthworms if not feed this source of food for a number of months. They will sample and then spit it out. A few days of this and they will take it readily.


Just like children the fish don't always eat what is best for them. Come to think of it I have a passion for a good stout, it might not be the best for me either.


Rick

[PapaBear]

Quote: Originally Posted by Clay ...A comment on the fish not eating based on environmental parameters. I think that the environment and the fish's life experiences have a bearing on this. Again, this isn't fact, but rather my perception of what is taking place. Rats will only eat a small portion of a new food until they get used to the source of the food. This is one thing that makes it hard to poison rats to extinction. I think that the fish, mature fish not juveniles, are shy about new foods. One example of this is that my own fish will refuse shrimp and earthworms if not feed this source of food for a number of months. They will sample and then spit it out. A few days of this and they will take it readily. Just like children the fish don't always eat what is best for them. Come to think of it I have a passion for a good stout, it might not be the best for me either. Rick

Passion for good stout is a sign of good character
As to the other parts, I got the same results even after prolonged fasting. In fact it was after a long winters fast that I introduced the new feeding regime. I'm not feeding any of the same pellets I did last season as they were old, stale, and unsatisfactory.
I do think your point on "new foods" being strange and unfamiliar is a good one though. Mine always tear shrimp up, no matter how often or seldom they get it, but oranges are sometimes toyed with a long time if its been a while. One thing I have been really surprized by is how completely bored mine are with watermelon. After watching some of Kiefers "feeding frenzy" videos I expected mine would at least acquire a taste for it, but they just don't seem interested. My daughters fish on the other hand go wild for it.
I think I'll go pop the top on a nice Dark Lager and ponder the question for a while

[Clay]

Quote: Originally Posted by PapaBear Passion for good stout is a sign of good character I think I'll go pop the top on a nice Dark Lager and ponder the question for a while

I knew that I liked you.

A few tastes to sample if you want to try something new: http://www.ratebeer.com/Ratings/Ratings-Top50.asp

To keep the post fish related, I never got mine interested in any type of citrus or watermellon either.

Rick

[johnsmith]

Guys, here's a break down of popular fish meals: ( protein 66- 71 %, lipids 9- 12 %, ash 12- 15%.


Norwegian quality: meals are based on Hake, sand eel, capelin,herring, smelt, blue ling and cod. Listed in order of increasing quality are -- standard, Norseamink, Norse LT94. ( from Nutrition and feeding of fish-- Springer press)

Danish quality : based on sand eel, sprat, mackerel and pilchard. The quality grades are-- standard, special A and B, 'aquaculture' and LT.

Chilean quality: based on sardine, pilchard. This brand difference in that it is tested for histamines and gizzeroline. The grades are standard, Corpesca, special and LT.

Iceland quality: based on Capelin and in two grades- standard and LT.

American quality is based on menhaden
Canadian quality is based on Herring
Peruvian quality on anchovy
South African quality on pilchard
Japanese quality on sardine.