"Jumbo" Tosai

[saratogatan]

Jumbo Tosai is a total rip off. The only advantage it has over normal sized tosai is the potential for size, and it is not guaranteed.

I have a maruyama jumbo tosai, female, exactly 24 months old, 20", got it at 13 months old, 16". I used to have a momotaro showa, not jumbo, got it at 8 months old and 7", at 25 months old when I killed it by accident, was 24".

If that is not enough, ALL jumbo tosai's I have in my pond were out grown by non jumbo. It sucked!!

In koi business, koi are priced per quality, not weight. so don't get ripped off. The first step to keep yourselves from getting ripped off is not to be sucked in by mumbo-jumbo.

stan

[gypsymom]

Okay. I understand all that has been discussed on this topic, so far.

My 2-cents: (Just to add to the mix)
Say I buy a fish from a very well known broker/dealer. The koi is a knock out–Tosai. Not ‘jumbo’, buy definitely Tategoi and I am encouraged by the b/d to show the koi. Must be a pretty nice fish, don’t ya think?

(Even if MY idea of showing a koi is to invite you to come and sit around my pond, share a bottle of wine with me and I’ll SHOW you my koi.)
[different topic ]

STILL…I have spent BIG$ on a VERY NICE fish. Now…if I ask the b/d for the name of the breeder, shouldn’t the b/d give it to me? (He won’t). He says one of the reasons he won’t is because he is concerned that I’ll go to Japan, visit the breeder and buy good fish out from under him…….This from a b/d who has been in ‘the business’ for more years than I have even been even into fish keeping, of any sort, which has been has been 35+/- years.
He says it really doesn’t matter who the breeder is, especially with all of the co-mingling of stock between breeders.

I’ve only been a koi-keeper for 2years–I have SO MUCH to learn about koi, the hobby, the nature of other koi-keepers and the politics of the koi hobby game. I do have some very nice fish (and some so-so ones, too. HEY! I’m still learning. ) I just want to have fun at this, and when I spend good money on good fish, I think I have the right to know as much as I can about the fish. (If I were to spend the amount I spend on a koi, on a Purebred Dog, you can bet the Breeder/Dealer would give me a pedigree from here-to-hallelujah for that animal.)

This gives me a bitter taste.

I only want to know who the breeder/supplier of the koi is….so that I can learn about the breeder’s lines, accomplishments in the ‘trade,’ reputation, what to expect, sort of, from this particular koi, etc., etc.

Am I right in feeling more than a little ‘put-out’ by this broker/dealer? If so, enlightenment will be appreciated. No, I won’t be offended by candid comments, or I’ll at least try. I just want to become a better educated Koi Hobbyist.

Or am I way out of line?


YiK,
Gypsymom

"Be kinder than you think necessary...for everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle"

[saratogatan]

If a dealer has problem disclosing the orgin of the koi, that means he is hidding something. You won't buy car from dealer who has trouble telling you its origin, will you ?

stan

[KoiCop]

Quote: Originally Posted by gypsymom I only want to know who the breeder/supplier of the koi is….so that I can learn about the breeder’s lines, accomplishments in the ‘trade,’ reputation, what to expect, sort of, from this particular koi, etc., etc.

YiK,

Your expectations are both reasonable and rational when buying a "nice" koi. Your dealer's reaction is not.

Find another dealer that isn't an idjiot.

[Sangreaal]

I have been amazed at the inflated prices of the growing population of jumbos being offered for sale, with no adequate definition of what makes them jumbo by the dealer/sellers that offer them.

Sure, one would think that a koi that has been specially treated (uncrowded conditions and better water quality to grow in, better feed and frequency of feeding, etc.) would be a better investment due to the care given them, BUT...those conditions would have to be met and continued by the buyer to the letter, and no one that sells them (that I've inquired of so far) seems to know what kind of husbandry or even water quality parameters the fish are used to. It's frustrating.



I have become quite discerning since becoming a Koi-Bito-ite, and I have YOU, each and every one of you to thank for it. You've raised questions in my mind that I may not have ever considered before, and you've taught me tons by pointing me in the right direction. Or at least trying to... *LOL*

Marie

[keokoi]

Asking the Breeder is a common thing we all do.. But this or at least myself is someting I ask before I buy. does it matter where it came from? To me yes as its education in development or I can maybe guess what its strong points are in its lineage. If my dealer didnt want to give up that information then I would think twice about buying from them as Koi hobby is appreciation and education. This is the part you should find a dealer who educates you. My dealer always was open to which breeder the koi was from and also more than openly invited me to Japan to see for myself.

So buyer beware. If the fish wants to go home with you that bad then the rest I guess doesnt matter..


Joe

[gypsymom]

True. Oh my EMOTIONS!! This baby was just too cute (read BEAUTIFUL).

(If we look familiar, please don't embarass the dealer or myself by any diclosures.)

Stan,
Good point and lesson learned!
GMom

Pix from this spring. 9.5" then....we're GROWING!

[Sangreaal]

Quote: Originally Posted by gypsymom Okay. I understand all that has been discussed on this topic, so far. My 2-cents: (Just to add to the mix) Say I buy a fish from a very well known broker/dealer. The koi is a knock out–Tosai. Not ‘jumbo’, buy definitely Tategoi and I am encouraged by the b/d to show the koi. Must be a pretty nice fish, don’t ya think? (Even if MY idea of showing a koi is to invite you to come and sit around my pond, share a bottle of wine with me and I’ll SHOW you my koi.) [different topic ] STILL…I have spent BIG$ on a VERY NICE fish. Now…if I ask the b/d for the name of the breeder, shouldn’t the b/d give it to me? (He won’t). He says one of the reasons he won’t is because he is concerned that I’ll go to Japan, visit the breeder and buy good fish out from under him…….This from a b/d who has been in ‘the business’ for more years than I have even been even into fish keeping, of any sort, which has been has been 35+/- years. He says it really doesn’t matter who the breeder is, especially with all of the co-mingling of stock between breeders. I’ve only been a koi-keeper for 2years–I have SO MUCH to learn about koi, the hobby, the nature of other koi-keepers and the politics of the koi hobby game. I do have some very nice fish (and some so-so ones, too. HEY! I’m still learning. ) I just want to have fun at this, and when I spend good money on good fish, I think I have the right to know as much as I can about the fish. (If I were to spend the amount I spend on a koi, on a Purebred Dog, you can bet the Breeder/Dealer would give me a pedigree from here-to-hallelujah for that animal.) This gives me a bitter taste. I only want to know who the breeder/supplier of the koi is….so that I can learn about the breeder’s lines, accomplishments in the ‘trade,’ reputation, what to expect, sort of, from this particular koi, etc., etc. Am I right in feeling more than a little ‘put-out’ by this broker/dealer? If so, enlightenment will be appreciated. No, I won’t be offended by candid comments, or I’ll at least try. I just want to become a better educated Koi Hobbyist. Or am I way out of line? YiK, Gypsymom "Be kinder than you think necessary...for everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle"

You have every right to know the breeder of the koi you purchased for show quality (or the right to know the breeder of the worst koi imaginable--it is all relevant to background, which is a reasonable thing to want to know). The fascination with koi that all collectors have requires such information for our enlightenment, not because we're trying to beat someone out of a buck.

I've encountered the same problem and can empathize with you.

Luckily, and in large part because of this board, education on everything you mentioned wanting to learn in your post can be found right here amongst these members you've just posted to. It's an interesting school to be a part of...people cruising in and cruising out just like the koi they have in their ponds, with as many diverse personalities, interests, specialities...

Marie

[gypsymom]

Believe me when I say that my days with this dealer are OVER!!!!
Decided that long ago, about 24 hours after the koi got home.

I should have known better....and I am pleased with this fish.

But, I WILL NOT SPEND ANOTHER DIME WITH THIS PERSON!!!

Since I started putting my art collection in a hole out back, I have bought only from 4 dealers, but most are from just one. Since my pond is fully stocked+, there will be no more emotional, or any other kind, purchases.

Time to sit back and watch those babies GROW!

Thanks for the support.

Yours in Koi,
GMom

Be kinder than you think necessary...for everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle.

[saratogatan]

please name that damned dealer.

stan