"Jumbo" Tosai

[gypsymom]

Larry, Larry, Larry....
Let's not be so hasty. Have you had the kind of experience that I am refering to?
Seems as though some who have read this thread have.

I can tell you that there are prominant dealers out there who will NOT give buyers/or prospective buyers the information that they request, in order for the customer to make satisfactory decisions about spending thier hard earned money. Of course there many who will, and do. Thank Goodness!

I have learned my lesson. Yes, I am happy with the koi I bought. I am NOT HAPPY with the way I was treated as a customer. (I will not spend another cent with this dealer.)(There are others with whom I would, of course. AND WILL!)

I have been on the giving and recieving end of cutomer service/customer relations, by profession (almost 40 years worth). I AM NOT proud for being so dumb in this situation, (Yes...I still am an emotional girl. Yes I am), but I have stepped back and have re-evaluated things in relation to this matter.

I have found out what I needed to know about the Koi Hobby.
It is no different than the antique motorcycle, old car, stamp collecting and so-forth hobbies. There are always those who will not be ethical, no matter what it costs....in the end it will cost them a lot.

[keokoi]

Gypsy, reading your post reminds me what I usually give advice to some people getting into the hobby. Its something I have done when I first started. Living in Norcal Bay Area we have many dealers to chose from. So instead of shopping for just koi, shop for a dealer. One that you can grow with and one that will give you generous amount of information. In return you give them your business.

The part I cannot understand about your dealer is what kinda price you woulda got if you did go to Japan? everyone who has been realizes that after Plane Ticket, hotel, food, train, car and then finally koi its rather pricey to go.

Joe

[gypsymom]

Joe,
If I had gone to Japan, I just Know I wouldn't have stopped at just 1 koi.
I didn't have to go that far to build a nice little herd.

I can’t imagine what out ‘koi bill’ would be if we were to travel to Japan. Oh! And then there would be the issue of the new pond for the new fish.

Most of our collection came from 1 dealer; he used to be in So Cal until a few weeks ago. The first 3 fish we bought, we got straight from his operation, in person. He knew we were absolutely clueless and he spent hours ‘schooling’ us, (Oh, Oh! Pun!), from the very first visit. He was very patient and took a great interest in teaching us. He has been a wonderful teacher. We trust him and we have a very good relationship.

We have also met 2 other dealers here in So Cal that have also been generous with their time and knowledge. These are the people who are responsible for our ‘kichi-ness’. We have been lucky.

As far as this other guy? We're done.

[koiczar]

GMom

You're absolutely correct. Going to Japan and stopping at ONE FISH is a foolish apperition, especially on your FIRST TRIP!!

Joe,

Anyone who goes to Japan to buy fish are doing so for more than just buying fish. It's to experience the culture, the environment, the beauty and the fact that there are vending machines that sell most anything "liquid" on every corner!LOL Hell, they're even out on the country roadsides in Niigata. But seriously, if you take a trip to Japan, do more than just buy fish. Enjoy all the country has to offer. The scenery is incredible, the food is to die for and the people are just genuinely polite, respectful and really fun to get to know. Everything else is just gravy!!

Mike

[keokoi]

Mike and Gypsy, that is a give in.... LOL! That is why I left it out. But we were talking about your dealer and you buying fish.. You cannot help but sight see and experience the culture in small Mountain towns and beyond. That is another subject by itself..


Joe

[PapaBear]

Quote: Originally Posted by gypsymom Larry, Larry, Larry.... Let's not be so hasty. Have you had the kind of experience that I am refering to? Seems as though some who have read this thread have. I can tell you that there are prominant dealers out there who will NOT give buyers/or prospective buyers the information that they request, in order for the customer to make satisfactory decisions about spending thier hard earned money. Of course there many who will, and do. Thank Goodness!...

I've not had the kind of experience you have, and never will . The reason being that if I'm going to $hell out some long green for a Koi I absolutely will know where it came from. I think the "I don't want to give away my sources so you won't go to Japan and bypass me" excuse is rather pathetic. Those who can afford to go to Japan on a Koi buying trip will do so anyway. Major dealers not only advertise their Koi, but their sources as well, so that their customers can make those wonderfully educated decisions. As has already been mentioned, the dealers who enjoy educating thier customers are the ones we can actually enjoy doing business with

[RayJordan]

Another possibility is dealers don't share the names of the breeders because they don't know who they are. Most Japanese koi that are not show grade are sold to Wholesale dealers that resell them after mixing them all together by the box. Risky business because it really increases the chances of getting khv and other diseases. Entire ponds of low grade koi are bought for $2-$3 ea. from the breeders and resold for $4-$8 ea. by the box. Shipping adds another $2-$4 per koi.

[PapaBear]

Quote: Originally Posted by RayJordan Another possibility is dealers don't share the names of the breeders because they don't know who they are. Most Japanese koi that are not show grade are sold to Wholesale dealers that resell them after mixing them all together by the box. Risky business because it really increases the chances of getting khv and other diseases. Entire ponds of low grade koi are bought for $2-$3 ea. from the breeders and resold for $4-$8 ea. by the box. Shipping adds another $2-$4 per koi.

These are precisely the "bulk tosai" I was referring to in my earlier post (#30). Mixed types of exchange fry that didn't make the Japanese "tategoi" cut.

[gypsymom]

Got it.

But for the sake of discussion...I suspect that with the dealer in question and the koi in question, this wasn't the case. *But then, who am I to second guess?*

As I said before...this dealer and I are done.

Fish Daddy and I are now going to concentrate on growing up the few nice koi we have. We feel that some of them are show worthy. The others are just ones that we plain ol’ like.

This hobby is more about what makes us happy anyway. And our koi make us happy. And so does the learning about them, nurturing them, the interaction with them and the enthusiasts who feel the same about their koi and the opportunity to experience the dynamics of it all. All in all–it’s a Beautiful Thing!

So let’s get out there and encourage our little Tosai to become JUMBO!!!!

Gypsymom

[koiczar]

Gypsymom

I have been reading this post for a few days now. I have read the responses from several folks - some really are dialed into what's going on and others are on the fringes of it.

How about this scenario:

A very good friend of mine is a local dealer. I have been to Japan with him, helped him man his booth at shows on a few occasions and done some personal things away from the business/hobby as well. A few years ago, I saw a beautiful sanke, nisai-17"female, at his shop that had recently arrived in the fall shipment. I inquired about the price and it was VERY affordable for this caliber of fish. I then asked the breeders name. He pulled me aside and said, "I'll tell YOU because we're friends, but I don't want others to know yet as this breeder is not well known at this time and I don't want other dealers finding out about this source so that when I go back in a few months, I can buy more of his stock at reasonable prices. If the word gets out and he starts becoming popular among the foreign dealers, then his prices will go up and I'll have to charge more because I pay more for the fish."

Now, over the past few years, I've noticed on his website that there are fish posted that simply say: Breeder-Niigata, rather than the names of the more recognized breeders who everyone buys fish from and posting the name just won't make any difference. We're talking about "hand selected" Nisai here - not bulk crapagoi from a distributor!!

Is this ethical? I don't know, but look at it from the business end of it. Does it make sense to hobbyists - NO! Then again, if you can buy a very high quality fish (if you TRULY know the difference at tosai or nisai size) for reasonable price, then why not!!

There are pros and cons about knowing who the breeder is of a particular fish. I heartily agree that for educational purposes it helps. But the dealer usually has no more of an idea about the lineage of the fish than you or I. When I say that, I mean, which parent stock the fish actually came from. I hope you don't think the breeder has one set of parent stock!! Take Maruyama for example - he has several parent sets - Some have that beautiful deep scarlet beni and incredibly white shiroji. Then there are others that show a totally different lineage, with softer white and more persimmon-like beni. Now, go to your dealers, look in his tank of tosai. If you can tell that both of these types came from the SAME BREEDER but different parent sets,(without being told), I'll buy you dinner.

Taking a trip to Japan, as a SERIOUS hobbyist, looking at the breeders "available" fish, if you like something, inquire as to the parents and ask if you can see some older siblings or the parents OR BOTH! The breeders usually appreciate your interest - after all they are farmers and are usually proud to show the fruits of their very arduous and tireless efforts. Then and only then will you BEGIN to understand what all this discussion should be about. Otherwise, go to a dealer you've come to trust, as previously stated, and buy what appeals to you. It's a VERY RARE situation when you are able to look at "true tategoi" here in the States. That word has been bastardized so much, I'm getting sick of hearing it - it's like fingernails on a blackboard! If a dealer tries to tell you that this/these fish are tategoi, walk away or at least understand that that is nothing more than a marketing ploy on his part to charge outrageous prices for nothing more than above average grade pond quality fish.

Mike