"Jumbo" Tosai

[gypsymom]

Koiczar Mike,
Thank You–For a rational, thoughtful, logical and classy response to this discussion.

All things being ‘equal’ (if there is such a thing…it’s kinda like being ‘normal’?), I do understand why a person who is in business is going to protect his/her business interests. It only makes sense. And as customers of a business we tend to think our concerns about a particular transaction should be addressed in fine detail.

Come to think about it. In MOST retail business, a customer usually would be very hard pressed to have the source of a merchant’s goods reveled. For precisely the same reason you gave.

It’s a case of da***ned if you do, and da***ned if you don’t. I suppose the philosophical discussion of ethics in this case could be at a stale-mate.

The bottom line is, I guess: Even though I wasn’t able to be satisfied with the entire transaction, to be given the information I felt I needed/wanted about this particular fish, I made the purchase anyway. Am I happy with the fish? Yes. Am I a satisfied customer? No. Will I do business with this person again? No. Did I learn anything? Yes. (Quite a number of things, actually.) Did this transaction ‘spoil’ my enthusiasm for this hobby? No WAY! And because of the interesting and informative thoughts expressed here, I think I am going to stick around a while….Read, study, think….ask questions, think some more and enjoy the process. All the more reason to believe I’ve become a bit kichi for koi.

I think I agree with what you said about Tategoi. Even though I’m just a ‘kid’ in this koi hobby, from what I have been able to read and such, it wouldn’t surprise me ONE BIT if there are but a very few non-Japanese hobbyist/enthusiast/business types who ever get to SEE, much less PURHCASE true Tategoi from the breeders in Japan.

I hope someday to be able to go to Japan, and by some stroke of luck, to be able to experience the type of dialog you described. But for now, I am content to be a student. I endeavor to be able to discern the subtleties that make for an A, A+ or A+++ koi from a few respected breeders, (and yes I do know that they have more than one set, two sets or more of breeding pairs or combinations there of. That’s what makes them ‘the masters’ )

GM

[koiczar]

GM

A very eloquent and well thought out response. If this is any indication of your passion for the hobby, you will do very,very well.

If I might make a suggestion, if you really wish to learn most all there is about selecting high class young koi with potential (sometimes the breeders do make mistakes, albeit rarely) then I would suggest you get two books on the subject but read them in reverse order. They are Kokugyo 1 and Kokugyo2. Book 2 should have been book one as it really goes in depth about how koi develop. Book 1 is really a "test" of your skills of selecting fish. It includes a CD with judging involved. After 40 years in the hobby, someone finally clarified the fine points. Now, the only frustrating part of book 2 is this - Breeders or bloodlines are NEVER EXPLAINED OR EXPOSED. So, unfortunately, you'll get another dose of that irritating dealer you so despise.

Another suggestion/recommendation - don't buy fish from pictures or through the internet - buy from a respected local dealer so that you can examine the fish first hand. Pictures are only two dimensional and live interaction is 3 dimensional.

Best wishes for a long and prosperous journey through koi!!

Mike

[johnsmith]

Let me put this out there with no motive or prejudice--


Often a dealer doesn't know where the fish came from. Sometimes a dealer doesn't know one line from another and doesn't care as he or she finds all that information a marketing handicap or beyond his/her depth.

But there is another explanation that fits with the most advanced dealers-

A dealer can be very knowledgable and experienced. And in that knowledge have developed a philosophy regarding koi. That philosophy says " a good koi is a good koi regardless of who bred it". There is some truth to that point of view. After all, many a high volume dealer is selling name fish that will never amount to anything- even the 'greats' produce a percentage of junk fish. On the other hand, a lesser known breeder can produce a handful of really good fish.
I have no doubt in my mind, for instance, that the very best ( top 5%) of a lesser professional Japanese breeder's fish are better than the bottom 5% of a famous breeder's fish.

In a reaction to this fact, and in frustration with a high volume guys ads about 'this famous breeder or that famous breeder' tosai tateshita sale, I could see a dealer getting caught up in promoting an individual fish rather than a brand?

JR

[gypsymom]

To Mr. Koiczar Mike,
Thanks, first of all, for the encouragement. People like you, and a large number of the others of whom I have read on this forum, are so very knowledgeable and so willing to share their knowledge–for that I thank you all.

We own both books mentioned, have spend HOURS deep into them–study, study…
I’m, not sure who you were referring to as the annoying dealer in that paragraph. But it is not the dealer who is connected with those books.

Also, I don’t really have it in my make up to despise anyone. I get PO’d, but despise? No. It takes too much energy. On reflection, being PO’d does too. Time for me to move on and get over it. More than anything, I suppose, I needed vent and to be validated in my displeasure.

That having been done, I am going to move forward and ENJOY this hobby and the people (and their koi) associated with it. There are a lot of things to learn, share and discuss. Being PO’d just puts up barriers to that.

To Mr. JR,
Well put and point well taken. Thank You.

GM


PS...That aside. I'm bummed that I'm going to miss Portland. We are going up there a week or so later to see our kids. Shoulda paid more attention to the calendar. Coulda gotten a koi fix and a grandkid fix at the same time!

[aquitori]

To jumbo tosai or not to jumbo tosai. I really spend my money on tosai, just regular tosai...When people start throwing this jumbo thing at mean I dont bite at the bait. I have come to a rational way of thinking that tosai is for learning and that is it. Be it I am competitive I dont set much expectations on them, plus I feel paying no more than $200 for a tosai is way too much.

With the jumbo thrown around, my suggestion to a hobbyist is to save their money for a Nisai, for the price you pay for a jumbo tosai your better off buying a Nisai for the same price.

[keokoi]

Jumbo Tosai or Not.. If I like it I buy it.. That is if its the right time of the year...

But if Price is rivaling of a Nisai.. I would buy the Nisai as I think it would be more stable all around..

Joe

[koiczar]

[quote=gypsymom]To Mr. Koiczar Mike,
Thanks, first of all, for the encouragement. People like you, and a large number of the others of whom I have read on this forum, are so very knowledgeable and so willing to share their knowledge–for that I thank you all.

We own both books mentioned, have spend HOURS deep into them–study, study…
I’m, not sure who you were referring to as the annoying dealer in that paragraph. But it is not the dealer who is connected with those books.



GM


GM

No, I wasn't saying that the writer of the two books was the same dealer - only that it's as frustrating that he doesn't tell who the breeders of the fish are so it would help understand the bloodline better. I was comparing that to the frustration felt by you and others when dealers don't, won't provide the name of the breeder.

Mike

JR

The particular dealer I'm speaking of DOES know who the breeder is. It's just that certain fish on the web site are simply marked: Breeder-Niigata. Again, these are HAND SELECTED nisai or sansai, not tosai.