Best of their respective variety

[johnsmith]

Absolutely Mike. And I owned a GC shusui that proves that point! I also owned a GC shiro utsuri. It can happen but it requires a quirky set of circumstances. Often I will read an amateur praising skin quality on a non gosanke. This is an inappropriate commentary as many varieties don't have levels of skin quality! What the keeper is usually referring to is a skin element like fukurin or just plan luster content of the epidermis. True skin quality involves complexity of skin- epidermis/dermis and deep dermis and how this effects color and pattern. If you understand this, you begin to realize how difficult judging and explaining to an exhibitor why his ginrin ochiba, although an exceptional specimen, did not unseat the GC kohaku. In other words, in the world of peers, the ginrin ochiba is #1. But up against a fish with more elements and dimensions that that fish, it becomes an 'also ran'. IF the exhibitor looks at these decisions as an opportunity to learn and NOT a slight towards their beloved pet, an ephany can occur.

JR

[RayJordan]

Gosanke have a huge advantage because they are bred in much larger numbers and have more emphasis on conformation, size, and refined skin elements and also depth of color not usually seen on non Gosanke. Most important colors are Red & White so koi not having those colors are at an extreme disadvantage. Dorsal patterns are the most refined with wrapping patterns next most refined. Lateral patterns and solid color koi types are considered least refined. Some Non-Gosanke are pretty close to Gosanke genetically speaking. Some examples would be:

Gin Rin, Goromo, and yes Shiro Utsuri.

Most high quality Gin Rin and Goromo have a Gosanke parent koi. Modern Shiro Utsuri are decended from modern Showas. When the competition level is high advantage for GC goes to Kohaku, then Sanke, and finally Showa in that order. It is really the top Kohaku's title to lose.

All that said it is very exciting when an underdog pulls off the upset and beats out a nice kohaku.

[KoiCop]

Quote: Originally Posted by johnsmith True skin quality involves complexity of skin- epidermis/dermis and deep dermis and how this effects color and pattern. JR

Would you please expand on this topic? I hear what you're saying but have trouble "seeing" it.

In my case, visual aids are always appreciated. Thanks.

[MikeM]

Don: I hope JR can come with something, but I think it is tough to really understand until you see top koi in person. As soon as you see one that is a quantum level higher than what you've seen before, you start to realize that koi you thought were great are "flat" & uninspired. Then you see another that is even better and what had seemed perfect becomes an also-ran. ....There is a real problem seeing such koi. You realize how pitiful your own are. And it spoils you a bit for enjoying as much what you are willing to buy. The best I've ever seen in person was when I went to the BKKS National in 2004, and that's not at the same level as Japan. (No disrespect, Bern. ). No picture is the same.

[KoiCop]

I hear ya -- big time. In fact, I could probably compose a rapturous post on the subject myself (having read more than a few of them). LOL

Let's see what JPR can come up with? I remember one of his inestimable threads on NI re: the types of gin rin, wherein I asked for pix and he obliged. They illuminated the discussion. With total and stunning clarity.

I'm hoping he can duplicate that feat here.

[johnsmith]

I can give it a try? Maybe a series is the best way to present this topic?

To begin at the beginning---

A koi's color, indeed it's entire impression is limited by the human eye's abilities to see it! It is how the human eye sees color and dimension in ambient light that counts.
So if we have a nicely colored fish but of a one dimensional type skin ( like doitsu) we see bright color but we can not see dimension. This fish then is not as 'valued' as one that presents 'depth and dimension' in its color. My friend Doug Dahl expressed this best in his lecture about wagoi vs doitsu. In that lesson he said, IF a wagoi ( scaled koi) is a fine painting, than a doitsu is a photograph of that painting.
I only use doitsu here, as these are an extreme example of dimension. In other varieties, dimension AND color concentration is involved- or lacking.

Using another 'illustration' here, you can picture a sheer fabric. Lets say it is yellow/orange. Now take another see-thru sheer piece of the same color and lay it over the first one, now a third one, now a fourth one. You will get a distinctly different impression of the color now- different from the first fabric alone.
Now lets put the whole mess of fabrics on a bright white china plate. The color changes again- it becomes more glowing and less hard. Lets add a silver and clear 'glitter' to each layer of fabric---NOW shine a bright WHITE light onto the plate and the fabric- again a whole new look.

When I get home, I'll sketch a picture of basement dermis and mid dermis and epidermis and HOW the color cells collect and cluster-
JR

[Bern]

Shiro Utsuri have taken GC at several major UK shows over the years. IMO the Go-Sanke competition at the time was not high. I have the utmost belief that the best koi will win on the day and no Go-Sanke prejudice exists.

The factors for selecting GC are the standard Body Shape, Skin Quality, Colour, and Pattern issues. Good body shape is achieveable by all varieites, Good body shape and large size is not the sole province of the Go-Sanke either. Several other varieties can match them. But where skin quality is concerned good Kohaku & Sanke are unmatched. This is what gives them the advantage.

From my own observations I see Showa slipping down the ladder somewhat, while Shiro holds it's own and Goshiki are gaining ground. All of which is to do with either the lack or the improvement to good skin quality.

rgds

Bern

[KoiCop]

Thanks James (& Bern).

Good start.