Best of their respective variety

[l113892]

Suppose we have two fantastic specimen competing for grand champion at a koi show. The kohaku and the shiro utsuri are both comparible in size and girth. Shiro Utsuri have improved tremendously over the last couple of years. Kohaku has only slightly improved in the last five years. The kohaku is a very nice one; it has all the elements of a superior kohaku. The judge considers that the shiro utsuri cannot compete with a kohaku in the area of quality and refinement, even though this shiro utsuri is the best example he has ever seen. Which fish does the judge pick?- the shiro that quite possibly is the best shiro ever produced or the kohaku that has ALL the elements- maybe not the best kohaku of all time but has the features that might be easier to come by for a kohaku. Can the best shiro of all time compete with any of the top 25 kohaku in the world?

[dinh]

Good thread. This Q was in my mind for quite sometime... Hope to know people views. Specially from folks like JR etc...Not only Shiro Utsuri, but I would like to see it applies to other types such Goshiki, Asagi etc... as well.

Thanks,
--Dinh

[MikeM]

Since I'm not a judge, I'll respond. ... I think it has to be the Kohaku. Simply because the Shiro is the best ever produced does not mean it is more deserving than a better koi that happens to be a Kohaku. The Goshiki in your avatar might well have been the best Goshiki ever produced if it had been around in 1980. It still would not have been at the level of refinement of the better Kohaku of the day. But, because of the rarity factor, it could be a far more valuable fish and more desired by a hobbyist than the "better" Kohaku.

Now, let's see if any judges bite on your bait!

[johnsmith]

If you were to ask me, I'd say that NO slot in a show is predestine. It just so happens that gosanke bring more to the dance than most other varieties. But gin rin gosanke, shiro utsuri and even ai goromo can all have the quality elements needed to be a GC.

Mike, what I have come to learn in doing the 50 plus shows I have been involved in and also studying this stuff for 21 years now-- is that koi are judged by age an size expectations and requirements and also by the award they are competing for. A GC type fish needs to meet a very high bar to made a GC award. And then, of course, it is about the competition ON the day. I have seen some really average kohaku competing for GC. One must win. I have also seen unbelievable kawari , one of a kind examples, that I would kill to own- but they just can't meet the requirements needed to be GC.

So I get your set up- a world class Shrio Utsuri Vs the good kohaku- can the Utsuri win? Yes. But like a great prize fight, it is the gosanke's to loose. This is not a prejudice or ' the emperor's clothes' type thing. It is a reality that most kohaku are superior to most utsuri in size, color quality, shape , skin texture and pattern. So IF you can find a shiro that is superior to the competing kohaku in all these areas- Why WOULDN'T it win?

JR

[dinh]

Here is USA, I saw Shiro Utsuri won GC awards...Just want to know how many non-gosanke won major koi show GC in Japan?

--DN

[l113892]

When I look at a superior shiro utsuri, I see the strong contrast between the glossy black and the white. But... if I could replace the black on the shiro with red, I would see imperfections, poor sashi, poor kiwa, small windows. So, if all things could be equal between the two fish, I struggle with how the shiro could compete with the kohaku unless.... we are suggesting that the particular shiro compared to the standard is closer to the standard(perfection) than the kohaku so it is the best fish of the day. And can we have the same depth of color from sumi as we do with beni? Is beni simply a more three dimensional color than sumi?

Can a shiro ever develop where we can look at the sashi and kiwa with the same critical eye as we do the kohaku today? I hope so. That would make the decision easier for me.

[johnsmith]

Mmmmm, I don't think we can expect black to be judged exactly like red. The reason I say this is because these color cells are different by nature- not just coloring but how they form and how they collect in the dermis and epidermis. So they only superficially look the same in terms in kiwa and sashi.

Remember that drawing I posted of a microscopic view of sumi? This is entirely different than the formation of beni. And I know you know Mike, that in the young tosai stage, sumi behaves very differently than beni in development. Its the whole black base Vs white base thing all over again.

JR

[mrbradleybradley]

I know that it is said that a GC is chosen by its GC elements and not by its variety status. But I still have this question pressing - What would it take for a non-gosanke to win GC? In other words what are the GC elements that are not variety specific.

BB

[PapaBear]

Not a judge (like mike), but here's my 2 cents worth.
If you remove "variety" from the picture you're back to the basics of body conformation, skin/color quality, and pattern/balance. If the Shiro has the superior body conformation it overcomes the first varietal hurdle and levels the playing field. If the skin quality is superior it moves ahead somewhat. If the pattern is a to die for "classic" you have a winner.
That being said, those are a lot of "Ifs".

[MikeM]

BB: It takes all the owners of better quality gosanke staying home. It's all a matter of who shows on the day.