Are domestic breeders good enough to grow quality Show Koi

[utsuri]

I think it can and will happen. Sooner than many would like to think. I do not think the riddle is going to be solved by any breeder looking to raise all types of Go Sanke. To get there somebody is going to have to set a goal that is based on real quality and not there financial bottom line.

The guy, holding the right genetics, that takes one variety and hones it sharp for a half a decade or so will hold the GC trophy at a major koi show.

Japan has been working on this for 200 years but, that doesn't mean we have to. The biggest part of that 200 years was developing the varieties we see today. Domestic breeders do not have to start from the common carp. All of todays non japanese breeders have that luxury. It is knowing what to do with it that is going to make the difference.

I really beleive that the term "domestic" in realation to american bred koi has been trashed by nonsense butterfly koi. The shoe would definitely be on the other foot if domestic was defined by the quality of what brett or maruice can and have produced.

Both of those guys run quality farms and produce koi that I would pay just as much for as any japanese koi. What is the potential if one of those guys started to concetrate on 1 type... I'd bet on the Jamaican bob sled thing then.

Why not? Quality is not about where something comes from. That is only percepion of quality. Quality lies in the product itself.

[MikeM]

Yes, amazing indeed. When it finally happens that a domestic takes GC at a "major" show (as if any in the U.S. are really major), the breeder will deserve the attention he gets... even if it is just once in a thousand shows. There is so much to be overcome to attain that point.

Dan: The next "Rainbow of Showa" installment will be in October/November. It's the end of the line for some, and some replacements are coming on strong. I can hardly wait to see them bowled myself!

[Motown]

Quote: Originally Posted by Sangreaal This is a 17" California bred kohaku sold on eBay, and there are more where she came from: Regarding the KHV issue, you're right Tonio. No one is safe anywhere. However, that doesn't mean that precautions shouldn't be taken. If you had a state of the art breeding facility with thousands (if not millions) of top quality Japanese koi, would you want to risk infecting the whole operation with even one KHV carrying import? A carrier is a fish that may have survived an outbreak but still carries the live virus, even though it will never get sick from it. (Read http://www.koihealth.org/) The disease originated in Japan, just like the bird flu originated in China. Carriers can infect the whole world without ever getting sick themselves. If I had as much to lose as our top American breeders, I'd close my facility to incoming fish indefinately until a vaccine that really works is developed and distributed. This thread is not about KHV, eBay, or dealer practices, it is about American breeders and what they have to offer to the show circuit that can compete with Japanese bred and grown koi. Let's remember that, please? Marie

KHV originated in Japan? Really?

Motown

[johnsmith]

Utsuri, spoken like a true dreamer.

JR ( still in possession of his dollar!)

[Brady Brandwood]

We've seen this topic/debate on these boards for several years, and the outcome is always the same,... some pro,... some con,... and some "Let's wait and see". It's all good, but I'm left wondering what the issue is really? What was the question?

What looks like a slam from JR is actually really helpful in showing how far we American Koi breeders have come.

"I mean, to say that generations of an organized National koi farmers union, of 50 years official standing and 50 more 'informal years, with millions and millions of yen invested, with generational knowledge and with the best of the best breeding stock, producing perhaps BILLIONS of fry to be culled down to thousands, can be bested in ten years by a handful of independents is really quite amazing! Don't ya think???"

If we look at ALL the Grand Champions in US Koi Shows over the past 10 years we see that almost all of them come from about 6 Koi breeders,... who all happen to live in Japan. ABOUT 6 BREEDERS. There are an estimated 400 Koi breeders in the Niigata region alone. Possibly 600 Koi breeders in Japan, North & South? Where are the US Grand Champions from the other 394 Niigata area breeders?

What I don't ever see in these debates is a perspective,... a real perspective. Read JR's quote again,... then consider what we American Koi breeders have accomplished,... despite this. I don't have statistics from any other American Koi Breeders, but I do have a list of most awards Koi from my farm have been awarded,... against all takers, Koi from any source,... who happened to show up on that day of Judging. Several Best In Sizes - several best In Varietys (most of them Gosanke) - an Adult Champion - Tategoi Awards - Judge's Awards.

It may look to some like we American Koi breeders are flailing around,... but MOST of the Japanese breeders are doing the same, statistically. In the big picture only a few Koi breeders are producing the best of the best Koi,.. maybe 6 to 14 Koi breeders in the world.

Does Oomo have a US Grand Champion yet? If so, how many, and which shows?
Momotaro? How many & which shows? A few at least?

When we look at these types of statistics and numbers we begin to get some perspective. What we are trying to accomplish is very difficult, very expensive, and shouldn't be looked at lightly.

Best Wishes,
Brady Brandwood

[Brutuscz]

Brady...I love it!!! Really puts it in perspective. What makes me laugh most is...if you put those 3 pics up, and said they were hand selected...top of the crop from sakai, momotaro, or isa....These import only guys would be ready to re-mortgage their house to buy one!!! ...and don't shake your heads....you know I'm right!!!

[Nancy M.]

[quote=

Does Oomo have a US Grand Champion yet? If so, how many, and which shows?
Momotaro? How many & which shows? A few at least?

Best Wishes,
Brady Brandwood

[/quote]

Well As far as California and Arizona, I can say that Ogata koi have won at least 8 GC, Marudo has won at least 4 GC, Shinoda has 1 GC, Dainichi at least 1 GC and I think Sakai has 1 GC these are just in 2 states. The shows would be, San Diego, All Bay area, Koi Kichi, Nishiki, Valley of Sun, Greater Phenix, ZNA So Cal, Eastern Nishikigoi. And these are just the shows in the past 3 years.

[Brady Brandwood]

Thanks for the statistics Nancy.

So, Nancy has mentioned 14 major to fairly major US Koi shows,... that have been won by only 4 Koi breeders.

Even if it were only Niigata Koi breeders that have won Grand Championships at US Koi Shows, and the top 100 of Niigata Koi breeders at that, where are the other 300??? Are ALL of their Koi superior to the Koi bred by American Koi breeders??? Don't they have access to the "best breeding stocks, culling experience passed down from generation to generation, clans of breeders working together, 50 years organized national farmers union"??? If so, where are they?

Some don't export to the US.
Some don't produce very good Koi.
Some don't grow their Koi beyond Nisai.
Some don't produce very many good Koi,... only an occasional really special one.
Some can't afford good parent stock,... though they live in Koi mecca.
Some just don't have a very good eye,... though they live in Koi mecca.

My point is this, it's really not reasonable to compare the 6 to 14 very best of a nation that invented Koi to a few here in the US that are also breeding Koi. There are hundreds of Japanese Koi breeders that are behind them as well.
Statistically we're doing pretty good.

Here's a statistic again. At the 2005 Charlotte Koi Show (120 to 140 Koi) 2 American Koi Breeders Koi took:

Best In Variety Sanke
Best In Variety Showa
Baby Grand Champion

as well as several 1st Place positions. So,... that's 2 of the 3 available Best In Variety trophies for Gosanke, and Baby Grand, all won with Gosanke born and raised here in the U.S. That was a show open to anyone who wanted to bring their Koi from any breeder in the world. Really not a bad statistic, and not a bad showing for the Koi's owners.

Best Wishes,
Brady Brandwood

[johnsmith]

Boys, very nice speeches and very nice pictures--- but I still have my dollar!

JR

[Nancy M.]

Quote: Originally Posted by Brady Brandwood Thanks for the statistics Nancy. So, Nancy has mentioned 14 major to fairly major US Koi shows,... that have been won by only 4 Koi breeders. Even if it were only Niigata Koi breeders that have won Grand Championships at US Koi Shows, and the top 100 of Niigata Koi breeders at that, where are the other 300??? Are ALL of their Koi superior to the Koi bred by American Koi breeders??? Don't they have access to the "best breeding stocks, culling experience passed down from generation to generation, clans of breeders working together, 50 years organized national farmers union"??? If so, where are they? Some don't export to the US. Some don't produce very good Koi. Some don't grow their Koi beyond Nisai. Some don't produce very many good Koi,... only an occasional really special one. Some can't afford good parent stock,... though they live in Koi mecca. Some just don't have a very good eye,... though they live in Koi mecca. My point is this, it's really not reasonable to compare the 6 to 14 very best of a nation that invented Koi to a few here in the US that are also breeding Koi. There are hundreds of Japanese Koi breeders that are behind them as well. Statistically we're doing pretty good. Here's a statistic again. At the 2005 Charlotte Koi Show (120 to 140 Koi) 2 American Koi Breeders Koi took: Best In Variety Sanke Best In Variety Showa Baby Grand Champion as well as several 1st Place positions. So,... that's 2 of the 3 available Best In Variety trophies for Gosanke, and Baby Grand, all won with Gosanke born and raised here in the U.S. That was a show open to anyone who wanted to bring their Koi from any breeder in the world. Really not a bad statistic, and not a bad showing for the Koi's owners. Best Wishes, Brady Brandwood

Oh was I supposed to list all the other awards these 4 breeders have won at these shows, I am afraid that it would take me a while, hell with just my fish alone, every award has been won at least twice by Ogata and Marudo, and I am not counting anything below best in size. I don't believe but correct me if I am wrong anyone, that here in California any domestic koi have ever won any major awards.