Are domestic breeders good enough to grow quality Show Koi

[keokoi]

I think its safe to say that many breeders in Japan are unknown and are just starting to make it in the western world.. Most breeders we see are household names such as Sakai, Ogata, Marudo.. But if you look even at the past show of cfks an unknown to the US market Ueno has popped up on the scene. So I think as the koi hobby grows in the western world we will see many unknown breeders pop up..


Brutus, have you ever been to ISA's greenhouse? If I could afford it I would not hesitate to purchase one of his although I wouldn't mortgage my house on it..


Joe

[Nancy M.]

Quote: Originally Posted by keokoi Brutus, have you ever been to ISA's greenhouse? If I could afford it I would not hesitate to purchase one of his although I wouldn't mortgage my house on it.. Joe

Joe, That greenhouse has some killer eye candy. Frank and I found one last year it was a 3 year old.. Damm she was NICE... but the $$$ was way out of our price range...

[johnsmith]

Here's an offer and a challenge- let's all go to the All Japan and look at the hundreds and hundreds of very high end fish in the exhibit. I guarantee you that once you see the sheer volume of gosanke in the size 7 and 8 range, that have come in SECOND ( there are many seconds in each judging), you will not be thinking the way you think at this moment. In otherwords, you will be humbed by what you see. JR

[Nancy M.]

Quote: Originally Posted by johnsmith Here's an offer and a challenge- let's all go to the All Japan and look at the hundreds and hundreds of very high end fish in the exhibit. I guarantee you that once you see the sheer volume of gosanke in the size 7 and 8 range, that have come in SECOND ( there are many seconds in each judging), you will not be thinking the way you think at this moment. In otherwords, you will be humbed by what you see. JR

Ain't that the truth, I was totally amazed at the so called losers at this years AJS. Truley some exceptional quality of fish. Our collection of fish look like Kmart blue light specials compared to most of the koi entered in the AJS.

[johnsmith]

Its true Nancy!
I would guess I've been to 11 of the last 16 All Japan shows? I'd have to check my notes, but if the average show had 2,000 fish ( most had a lot more), then I have been treated to and studied some 22,000 high end Japanese fish! I think I've judged about 50 shows at this point? And probably 40 US shows? Please, please please believe me, unless the competition is weak or it is a small show, a domestic is not likely to win a US show for many years to come. All things being equal, the Jamaican bobsled team does not have a prayer— Sorry, just trying to keep it real.

JR

[koiczar]

Quote: Originally Posted by johnsmith Its true Nancy! I would guess I've been to 11 of the last 16 All Japan shows? I'd have to check my notes, but if the average show had 2,000 fish ( most had a lot more), then I have been treated to and studied some 22,000 high end Japanese fish! I think I've judged about 50 shows at this point? And probably 40 US shows? Please, please please believe me, unless the competition is weak or it is a small show, a domestic is not likely to win a US show for many years to come. All things being equal, the Jamaican bobsled team does not have a prayer— Sorry, just trying to keep it real. JR

JR

You just summed it up in a few sentences. Thanks for "keeping it REAL"!!

Mike

[bekko]

James, would not the high quality of the fish at the All Japan show just put your dollar in greater jeopardy? At least in a short-term perspective? If all the Japanese hobbyists suddenly decided to devote themselves to arowana, those highest quality koi would have to be sold at bargan basement prices to places like the US, EU and China, instead of staying in Japan.

It's a numbers game. The quality of the finished product is a function of:
- quality of the broodstock,
- quality of the culling eye,
- number of juveniles being sent through the culling station.

History and culture should provide some insight into who has the best broodstock and culling eye. However, those are debatable points so we will not go there.

But, even if we were to assume that the US and Japan breeders are equal in broodstock and culling eye, the Japanese are still culling through a LOT more fish. An inherent Japanese breeder advantage. Brady indicates that the magnitude of this advantage could be in the order of 400:1 (based on the number of farms alone).

The best koi produced in the US stay in the US while only a portion of the best fish produced in Japan are sent to the US. An inherent US breeder advantage. So, what is the magnitude of this advantage? Is it more or less than 400:1? You could make an educated guess based on the number of lower-quality koi in the field of 2000 at the All Japan show. If about five (2000 divided by 400) of the fish at the All Japan show are no better than the best koi in a major US show, then one could postulate that the odds are pretty close and a US breeder will likely produce a GC at a US show.

-steveh opk

p.s. Using this twisted logic, the odds of a US-bred koi winning the All Japan approaches zero.

[utsuri]

Quote: Originally Posted by johnsmith Utsuri, spoken like a true dreamer. JR ( still in possession of his dollar!)

Where do you think the ability to complete such an accomplishment starts. Too many people use that cliche to knock down some of the brightest minds in the country. It really sticks in my @$$.

It certainly isn't going to form an individual who says "spoken like a true dreamer"

I would certainly hope that when somebody does really step up to the plate that many do not speak forth with the same general negativity.

To add to my theory of where such a breeder will come from........

Where do you think many of the most technilogical advances in the aquarium world came from?
The indivudual who had an idea that became a dream and eventually realism. It started in basements all across Europe.

Oh and Jr's dollar.
Maybe he should stand up and not bet that dollar but invest it in the best possible choice. What if we all did that. $1.00
I am sure that some our nations best would really think about it.

[luke frisbee]

So if Jr wins GC with a domestic do we all have to give him a dollar?

[utsuri]

Quote: Originally Posted by luke frisbee So if Jr wins GC with a domestic do we all have to give him a dollar?

I would hand deliver it.