Are domestic breeders good enough to grow quality Show Koi

[utsuri]

What an interesting read for the morning. I still stand in my statement that it is absurd to think it will not happen anytime soon.

I have read many posts in this thread from pros and cons of the idea.

I have seen what it is going to take:
Good genetics
Good culling eyes
Big money

But yet to find anybody studying what is being done during the few months before a show to get a koi ready. Direct preparation for the event is just as crucial.

I think that too can be a fourth element of what it takes.
How to get koi to show thier absolute peek colors.

Here is a suggestion that might educate the right person. I think John Smith mentioned that he has judged many shows.
John tell us what to look for in confirmation. Give the public the big picture on what the judges are really taking into account when judging. Head shape, body and type. It wouldn't hurt if you were to be exact. This crap about the koi should look powerful and delicate ain't gonna cut it. What are lines of koi structure that judges are using to qualify them?

Maybe the right person will read it. I see some on here that have won some pretty decent merits with thier koi. They could be the right reader.
That is if your not afraid to loose a dollar. LOL

[KoiCop]

Welcome to Koi-Bito!

I'm sure once you've been here awhile and learn to use this site's "search" function you'll find quite a few threads with information on how to prepare your koi for showing.

You'll also find lots and lots of threads discussing exactly what judges take into account when making those kinds of decisions.

Again, welcome aboard.

[utsuri]

Thanks Koi Cop. I just saw this thread and got all wound up in it. Great informative forum.

[Joansmithe]

Utsuri, as a consumer as well as a judge, I only hope that domestics will get to the level of Japanese stock in my life time!
And not to worry about my dollar, I have another one in a sock in my dresser drawer!

OK, first things first. If judged properly, koi are judged according to age and sex. So what makes for a winning baby is not the same as what wins as an adult or a jumbo koi as a GC. Secondly, GC judging is a judging of the best fish in THAT particular show. So the definition of GC is an ideal as many shows in the USA can't or don't field a Japanese level GC.

Understanding this, a GC is typically a female ( 99% of the time) because when judging adult fish, the males don't pack the body that the females do. And almost by definition, these large fish are of a full adult age ,meaning they are past puberty and in the range of at least 4 and usually 6-8 years of age. This means that the fish is large and robust. Very hard to find a male that can compete with the female body at that point. Secondly, females tend to develop different skin as they meet up with their maximum female hormones. This generally makes patterns stand out and the 'Jitai' just right.
SO- female of 28-32 inches, age 5-9 and skin that gives the color ( of high quality dimension) and pattern ( least important believe it or not) that high class look. This is a general description of a GC.
To get that 28-32 right body you require a great bone structure. That is part genetics and part environmental impact on the development over the previous 5 years.
As mentioned, on top of that bone chassis you need the right quality skin.
The skin also has to be brought along so that it develops correctly. This is perhaps where those who think the owner isn't 'judged' along with his fish, need to reconsider. For instance, an owner can bring an average good grade fish up to compete with a super grade but poorly cared for better fish. A breeder will still pick the better genetics. But an amateur judge will often pick the lesser but better conditioned fish. Hopefully this sliding scale of quality vs conditioning will be well understood by the amateur judge and a strong rational can be pointed to. But I digress--------
JR

[utsuri]

Now that right there is an excellent post. And from one who knows and has nothing to hide or protect. It is information like that that will get noticed and start to be practiced at a higher level by more and more American Breeders that are trying to achieve the pinnacle in koi breeding.

There is obviously much much more to learn. So share people.
Wasting time debating (while fun and comparing our brain's capacity to retain the who's who) on the subject is just that. WASTING TIME.
12 pages of who has the biggest brain.
How about 12 pages of serious hardcore "what it takes to make GC quality koi". From those who know. That kind of sharing is what will get the american breeder to the pinnacle much faster than sitting around debating and doubting.

"Another in the sock drawer" I like that.

[PapaBear]

Nice to see you over here too. As already mentioned, you'll find lots of threads scattered around that address your questions, and with the knowledge/experience base this forum has to draw from its pretty good stuff. (many members here have been koi-keepers for 20-30 years+++). That gives them a perspective balanced by the changes that have taken place over many decades.
No doubt there are Non-Japanese bred Koi today that could win GC at some major league shows... if the show were being held 20 years ago. We're behind the curve not only in terms of experience and volume, but while we've been trying to play catch-up the leaders in the industry over in Japan have been raising the bar incrementally year after year. Today's also-ran showa that doesn't get a second look from the judges would completely destroy yesteryears #1. We have finally surpassed yesterdays standards, we're years behind todays, and none of us know what tomorrow even looks like... but at least we're still moving in the right direction.

[utsuri]

Thanks PapaBear. I like to see the positive mentality of your post. I do think we are heading in the right direction. he more we share the more we pick up on and continue the chase. The Japanese are pretty darn at almost anything they set out to do. So, they will continue to improve thier koi. As will we. We just have to figure out how to get to the next step and we are well on our way.
I see it as very imporatant that American breeders gain respect within our own country. Granted they have to earn it. The importantce of this, I think, is crucial to further safegaurd against KHV. I know that stuff is everywhere and they say things are under control but are they really. I beleive that if a farmer has his life invested and sees KHV in his farm, he isn't going to admit it. He will continue to sell to survive and the virus continues around the world. If we could take some of the best gene pools we have and very carfeully build on that we too could produce huge numbers of very high quality koi without having to import and seriuosly risk the chance of bringing in a larger number of infected koi.

All in all we could get much further if more of the American Koi Breeder would strap on the boots and stop being satisfied in producing crapagoi. That mentality has really slowed our progress. Of course that is easy for me to say not being a breeder . Well atleast anything outside the hobby level. Which brings me to the next point. The hobby breeder also needs to learn respect for the dirfferent varieties. I see way too many that keep flock spawns just for the fun of it and pass them on to others. It really dilutes the different varities to the american eye. We all know what that leads to "koi are just koi" mentality. Not good. If the buyer were more educated, that would be a major influence on breeders to push themselves.

[junglegeorge12]

Quote: Originally Posted by Nancy M. Well As far as California and Arizona, I can say that Ogata koi have won at least 8 GC, Marudo has won at least 4 GC, Shinoda has 1 GC, Dainichi at least 1 GC and I think Sakai has 1 GC these are just in 2 states. The shows would be, San Diego, All Bay area, Koi Kichi, Nishiki, Valley of Sun, Greater Phenix, ZNA So Cal, Eastern Nishikigoi. And these are just the shows in the past 3 years.

This is a good point by Nancy that supports Brady's comments. As does her post following this one. Considering the sheer number, hundreds and perhaps thousands of Japanese breeders, that is really very few in comparison. I know that the top breeders I have had communications with feel anyone can become a top breeder if they work hard, but that it takes time and committment. They also stress the importance of quality oyagoi and experience working that line rather than any one particular line.

The folks in the import business have a huge vested interest in denigrading US breeders and exalting the koi they import by any means possible. Ethics, human decency, and simple respectful professionalism do not seem to be a concern to many of them. I would venture a guess that if a person took a quality US bred koi to a show and lied about it's origin, it would get much further due to their influence even with the judges. Do not tell me a judge can tell a US bred from sakai, sensuke, or dainichi lines from a Japanese bred by looking at it. It's the same dna. Sometimes even superior dna. But, the pressure on US breeders to perform is good motivation for them. So even ugliness has it's positive results at times.

[Sangreaal]

2 year old 20 inch female kohak, San Joaquin Koi, Richard Rombold breeder:



What do you figure she'll look like in a few more years?

[jnorth]

Quote: Originally Posted by junglegeorge12 The folks in the import business have a huge vested interest in denigrading US breeders and exalting the koi they import by any means possible. Ethics, human decency, and simple respectful professionalism do not seem to be a concern to many of them. I would venture a guess that if a person took a quality US bred koi to a show and lied about it's origin, it would get much further due to their influence even with the judges. Do not tell me a judge can tell a US bred from sakai, sensuke, or dainichi lines from a Japanese bred by looking at it. It's the same dna. Sometimes even superior dna. But, the pressure on US breeders to perform is good motivation for them. So even ugliness has it's positive results at times.

Judges don't know where the koi come from. The breeder is not listed on the entry forms nor whether it is domestic or imported. If they don't win at a show it is simply because the imports are better that day. It's all about what is best the day of the show. The breeders names don't come up until after the judging is through and everyone is asking where the winners came from. As for importers of koi I don't think dealers would have a problem buying domestics because profit margin would be greater.....but only if the quality is there.