Are domestic breeders good enough to grow quality Show Koi

[dick benbow]

If your asking if the very best koi bred by the japanese top 5 breeders can be competed with the top fish from domestic breeders the answer is a resounding No.

Can our top 5 domestic breeders ( including Maurice herewith from UK ) compete
with some very good breeders from japan, the answer is yes!

iN ANY INDUSTRY....A 200 YEAR HEAD START IS DIFFICULT TO CATCH UP WITH!

But when you look at the top five domestic breeders, they have friendships/guidance from the japanese themselves so the distance is being rapidly eliminated. Of the 7 koi I own 3 are japanese bred. 4 are domestic. as picky as i am about quality I would challenge anyone to pick the difference.

To appreciate the koi you need to see them in the flesh and not just a picture. All you see there is pattern.

Don't sell our domestic breeders short, unless you've visited their operations and seen first hand what they are capable of producing.


I have nothing but encouraging words for our breeders. The distance they are behind the japanese is decreasing every day...it's only a matter of time AND SUPPORT BY THE LOCAL MARKET!!!!!!! ( that be you! )

[bekko]

I think Larry summed it up pretty well. When you go to Nigata to buy a koi, you are buying both the fish and the breeder. The reputation of the breeder has a huge impact on the value of the fish. This is not all hype, smoke and mirrors either. A good breeder knows his gene pool and knows how to select fish with a higher probability of becoming champions. Generational experience and reputation is a strong economic advantage.

Luke, I agree that domestic breeders have a modest inherent advantage in less expensive land. But look at the numbers. How many fry are presently being grown by serious domestic breeders (we don't count Ozark Fisheries and the like) versus serious Japanese breeders. It is, after all, a numbers game and the quality of the product is a function of the number of juveniles being sorted through at the culling table.

I think the second strongest inherent advantage lies in places like China and Korea. They have cheap land AND cheap labor. Compare the cost of lookng at 10,000 juveniles in Korea versus the cost of looking at 10,000 juveniles in Florida.

-stevehop

[Brutuscz]

There are a few things to point out in this comparison. A buyer like myself (where money IS an object) is more likely to be able to afford a TOP quality fish from a domestic dealer. I know full well that I cannot walk into sakai (H) or Dainichi and purchase their very best kohaku. It would be way out of my price range. I do know, that at a domestic dealer..I at least have a chance to get their best stuff.

It is also true that japanese breeders are involved with some domestic farms. I know that Blackwater creek is partially owned by Suda. This type of arrangement will improve our domestic stock. Now we just need omosako, sakai, dainichi, hosokai and momotaro to follow suit!!! Then, things will really take off!!!

[luke frisbee]

well I'm trying to see if any Domestic breeders (besides maurice) actually hang onto koi for the time needed for them to fully develop and if thye are getting some stonking good koi ...some that could GC at a major show....or are they completely driven to fill the petsmarts and koi Show vendors.

[PapaBear]

Quote: Originally Posted by Brutuscz Wish I did have a mud pond...no, I'm not a breeder. I sell their fish, and raise some myself.

You give some of the best pictoral evidence available from a single breeder that the genuine potential is out there, but it also points out part of the problem the breeders here face. What we DON'T have is some pix of Sansai, Yonsai, Gosai+ with a year or better in the mud under their belts to show the marketplace the potential they and their younger siblings posess if only given the chance.
I've been steadily impressed with Blackwater's product, but I've never gotten to see any when they really are all "grown up". Kiefer is another one with some beautiful parent stock and some tosai to brag about, but since his operation is still fairly young it's going to take a while to see what becomes of the ones he's put back in the mud. (I know you've lusted after some of his female kohaks, we all have )
I really appreciate Dick's point. There are some excellent domestics out there, but it is absolutely up to us to support their efforts by spending our Koi $ with them. I'm not talking welfare charity here. Just recognizing quality and value and being willing to pay a fair price for it, even if it doesn't have a very "Japanese" sounding name.

[Brutuscz]

Here are two big tancho's from blackwater. I was selling these two on ebay..but no one bought(the pair was $2200). They are each about 20"..and grown out at their facility. I do not know the age. I do want to point out the quality of the shiro...nice white nose. I have seen some of their other large koi..but have no pics at the moment. Some were excellent..some lousy. Depends on the variety. I never like their showa's, but their asagi's are becoming excellent. I must say they are working really hard to improve all varieties.

[koiczar]

I've seen pics of some of Brady Bandwood's showas that were nisai and sansai. Some are very nice "potential" fish. He must be growing some out, supported by the crapagoi market we have been talking about.

Luke, I wouldn't necessarily label what they're doing as "Capitalism, per se, just plain good business management. But, to make sense of their efforts, they need to step forward and spend the extra time/money to grow out some high grade stock and SHOW THEM TO PEOPLE. That's called MARKETING and I feel that all the domestic breeders fall very short of the mark when it comes to that facet of business.

Brutuscz

After looking at the pics you've posted of the fish you've purchased and turned around for a profit, from Blackwater Creek, I am forced to be blunt: There are two fish from all those pics that I would even want to take a second look at: the asagi on the far right of the group shot and the last of the 3 in the second post. Oh, and the goshiki you lost to a heron wasn't too bad either. Maybe I'm spoiled living out here in Northern California. I have 5 local dealers, 4 within 10-15 minutes from my house that constantly bring in high class fish. I have also seen some of Blackwater Creek's fish in person. They are not in the realm of what would be considered "high class" koi. They are definitely above the average for "domestic" bred fish, but not to be in the same breath as Japanese koi. Sorry, just my personal point of view. I know it may sound crass(sp) but that's how I see it. If Suda-san is really in partnership, he must be a silent partner. Either that or he has hedged his bets and is simply using it as a write-off. This way he makes sure the Japanese stay in the forefront!!

[Brutuscz]

I don't want anyone to think I only do domestic..far from the truth. I have koi from sakai, matsunosuke, hosokai, igarashi, genjiro, marusho, takahashi, hiroi and yamazaki. So..a good mix of breeders. It is more difficult to tell the imported from the domestic than you would expect. The picture of my shiro utsuri..was taken the day I acquired it..very stressed. Right now it is looking excellent, and improving steadily. I also have 2 shiro utsuri's from marusho...when the 3 are together, I challenge anyone to tell which is domestic or imported. I believe it depends on the variety..I have never seen a great domestic showa or kujaku? I have seen many excellent domestic sanke and shusui though. One of my local koi dealers gets his imports from toyoma now..and nishikigoi of niigata before that. He also carries sakai(H). So, I do have access to some good imported stuff locally...just have to work harder at it than you california boys!!!

oh...and I did keep that asagi you pointed out...sold the others..lol.

[aquitori]

Quote: Originally Posted by Brutuscz Here are two big tancho's from blackwater. I was selling these two on ebay..but no one bought(the pair was $2200). They are each about 20"..and grown out at their facility. I do not know the age. I do want to point out the quality of the shiro...nice white nose. I have seen some of their other large koi..but have no pics at the moment. Some were excellent..some lousy. Depends on the variety. I never like their showa's, but their asagi's are becoming excellent. I must say they are working really hard to improve all varieties.

The Tancho on the 2 fish look weak, $2200 for a pair of Domestic Tancho's? Kind of pricey. It would be hard for me to swallow such a price if the Tancho disappeared, especially knowing they are Domestic.

Plus, being in California where there are more than a handful of new and old dealers, why would you buy domestic anyways? If you shop around you could probably find a good deal or that diamond in the rough so to speak.

[Brutuscz]

...oh..and you know you love that kikokuryu...everyone loves a darth vader fish!!! All gosanke aside...nothing looks cooler than a mini killer whale!!!