Are domestic breeders good enough to grow quality Show Koi

[Sangreaal]

Quote: Originally Posted by aquitori In a few years Domestic koi may be at the same level as Japanese koi. But my question is: Should they be the same price as a Japanese koi?

If Domestic koi are of the same quality and calibre of Japanese koi (after all, the parent stock came from Japanese stock, so they are still Japanese, even if they're born in dumbstruck Egypt *L*), don't you think it would be a slap in the face to the breeders of such fine quality (they are artists too!) to say that their koi aren't worth as much as those bred and raised in Japan?

[PapaBear]

Quote: Originally Posted by aquitori In a few years Domestic koi may be at the same level as Japanese koi. But my question is: Should they be the same price as a Japanese koi?

The question comes down to when. Virtually all high quality American bred Koi are produced from well established Japanese bloodlines that are only one or two generations removed from their native Japanese forebears, so it isn't as though we're starting from scratch. The equal treatment will be justified by the refinement of American breeding and tategoi selection skills proven in the show arena.
IF an American bred Kohaku from Momotaro purchased parent stock won GC at a major US show, wouldn't it be considered more valuable than the Momotaro import that came in 2nd place? Especially when you consider the very real possibility that they may well share the same grandparents?
Yeah Marie

[aquitori]

Quote: Originally Posted by Sangreaal If Domestic koi are of the same quality and calibre of Japanese koi (after all, the parent stock came from Japanese stock, so they are still Japanese, even if they're born in dumbstruck Egypt *L*), don't you think it would be a slap in the face to the breeders of such fine quality (they are artists too!) to say that their koi aren't worth as much as those bred and raised in Japan?

Let me ask you this, what did that Kohak go for? Size? Age? Bloodline of Oyagoi?This is the first piece of info I need.

Richard's stocks aren't bad. I just dont know what his fish are going for.

[Brady Brandwood]

Koi prices in Japan vary GREATLY from breeder to breeder - same type, same age, same size,... How could comparing the prices of American bred Koi to Japanese bred Koi be a curiosity, a concern, or an issue? Where is the standard? Is there a manufacturer's suggested retail???

Whose Koi are we comparing?

Which Japanese breeder to which American breeder?

The prices of Koi from Japan are affected by a lot of factors when they hit the US Shores.

What quality?

What age?

What size?

Is the importing dealer buying in large volume?

Many dealers buy exclusively from one breeder, and get great buys, then mark these fish up quite a bit. Does that marked up price then become the actual value of that Koi???

What IS the actual value?

How is that determined?

Best Wishes,
Brady Brandwood

[Sangreaal]

Quote: Originally Posted by aquitori Let me ask you this, what did that Kohak go for? Size? Age? Bloodline of Oyagoi?This is the first piece of info I need. Richard's stocks aren't bad. I just dont know what his fish are going for.

If my memory serves me right, that 17" kohaku female went for just a tad under $300. Something like $297, but I don't recall the exact amount. Age and bloodline I will have to ask Richard. I have asked him for pics of oyagoi just last evening, so all in good time. I will post when I get the info for you.

Okay Tonio?

Marie

[aquitori]

Quote: Originally Posted by Sangreaal If my memory serves me right, that 17" kohaku female went for just a tad under $300. Something like $297, but I don't recall the exact amount. Age and bloodline I will have to ask Richard. I have asked him for pics of oyagoi just last evening, so all in good time. I will post when I get the info for you. Okay Tonio? Marie

Thanks Marie. $300 is not bad. Very cheap!!!

To each is his own when it comes to koi Marie.

[MikeM]

Ah, Brady, isn't value in the eye of the beholder?

Most koi are simply a commodity. But fortunately there are those whose beauty stands out from the crowd and they are few enough that a market exists that measures value beyond matters of size and freight cost. What we need are more hobbyists who can appreciate enough of the difference to support the effort to produce ever more and better koi.

On another thread a few weeks ago I mentioned looking over Axelrod's Koi Of The World book for the first time in a lot of years. We have a number of domestic breeders in the U.S. who surpass most the "winning" koi in that book... koi from the 1960s, but some among the best there were in the 1960s.

Where are domestic U.S. breeders today in relation to Japan? In my opinion, there are a number of high quality koi being produced equal to the mid-range of Japanese-produced koi; and a few that come within the upper range of Japanese koi, although well short of the best Japan can offer. That's pretty good progress for some guys sloshing around in the mud. How much longer will it be before somebody produces a goodly number falling in the upper range and an occasional one that comes close to the best from Japan? ... probably not as long as it took to get where we are. I think it will occur in the breeding careers of the leading breeders producing today. ...Then one day we will get to that fine point, like in the Olympics, where superiority is measured in such slight increments that normal mortals cannot appreciate the difference between first place and fourth (and I don't mean Jamaican bobsledders!). I doubt I'll see that in my lifetime, but is a global economy. All things will reach an equilibrium in time...more time for some things than others.

[KoiCop]

Are domestic breeders good enough to grow quality Show Koi?

Smaller sizes and smaller shows: Occasionally.

Larger sizes and larger shows: Rarely.

Largest sizes and largest shows: Haven't, aren't and won't any time soon.

[aquitori]

Quote: Originally Posted by PapaBear The question comes down to when. Virtually all high quality American bred Koi are produced from well established Japanese bloodlines that are only one or two generations removed from their native Japanese forebears, so it isn't as though we're starting from scratch. The equal treatment will be justified by the refinement of American breeding and tategoi selection skills proven in the show arena. IF an American bred Kohaku from Momotaro purchased parent stock won GC at a major US show, wouldn't it be considered more valuable than the Momotaro import that came in 2nd place? Especially when you consider the very real possibility that they may well share the same grandparents? Yeah Marie

Good points.

[aquitori]

Quote: Originally Posted by KoiCop Are domestic breeders good enough to grow quality Show Koi? Smaller sizes and smaller shows: Occasionally. Larger sizes and larger shows: Rarely. Largest sizes and largest shows: Haven't, aren't and won't any time soon.

Very good points Don. Have seen Domestics win in the smaller classes, but yet to have seen one win GC at a major show. (Well, it has happened already, but let's just say it wasn't an American Domestic)