Are domestic breeders good enough to grow quality Show Koi

[luke frisbee]

QUOTE=PapaBear]Nice and frank thank you very much , and a lot of truth to it all. Why would we think domestic breeders would NOT sell large numbers of petsmart/walmart crapagoi in order to support themselves? The Japanese do so in huge volumes in order to support their operations as Koiczar all too accurately pointed out. It is the sale of those high volume/low rent/water garden fish that pays the feed bill for the small number worth spending the extra time and money on. (Evil Capitalism doing its job of paying for the arts Marie , otherwise all the artists starve before they finish the first painting).

My hope (and it is just a hope) is that more domestic breeders will take the leap and start raising some select tategoi beyond nissai so they can have a shot at proving themselves in a larger arena than a few koi forums.
We've all seen some fine looking domestics posted on this forum by our own members. I wonder how much Luke's $10 Shiro would have been valued at if the name "Omosako" had been on the tank instead of "Blackwater Farms"? Maybe if Blackwater keeps putting them out like that and grows a few for major shows we'll get a chance to find out someday.[/quote]

PB has got me to think...
American breeders are either fools, lazy, misguided, inept, or just plain dumazzes. The ONE big thing the japanese do not have that American breeders Have PLENTY of is LAND for Mud ponds for growing out their best stock....
And to the few Domestic breeders that read this...don't tell me you ain't all of the above...SHOW ME! with pics of what ya got in the "Special Customer Pond"

[PapaBear]

I think they are good enough, but the re$ource$ to pay for all the extra pond space, seperate filtration, quality food, can't be ignored. Having lots of room doesn't mean the same thing as having lots of high risk venture capital. Growing out beyond Nissai is a gamble just like going to Vegas. You don't do either unless you're using money you can afford to loose.
I see the biggest challenges for domestic breeders like this, in no particular order and likely incomplete.
1) They MUST sell a lot of petsmart crapagoi just to pay for basic operations, just like the Japanese do.
2) They must continue refining their culling skills one year at a time to mirror what the Japanese have been passing from one generation to another for 100+ years.
3) It takes at least 2-3 years to find out if you culled well enough to make it worth the bother.
4) If they do produce some outstanding Koi they'll be lucky to get the feed bill back in return for several years of effort because "Bickal-San, Keifer-San, Rowley-San" just doesn't have the same ring to it. (The "chaching!" ring that is)
5) They'll have to win multiple GC's, Best in Size, etc..., against Japanese imports, year over year, in order to gain enough respect to fetch even 50% of the Japanese price for a comparable fish.
6) The North American Domestic market is the only one they'll have in their lifetimes. If the commitment isn't multigenerational it won't sustain itself and progress as it has in Japan.
Or I could be completely wrong .

[luke frisbee]

Ok big mud pond (hole in ground) very few fish, and a automatic feeder....seems like thta would be the outlay....every Domestic breeder out there could SHOULD have what they saw as the best of their tategoi growing up in a vast mud pond.

[luke frisbee]

let's see em!

[Brutuscz]

Here is a few from blackwater creek. Some I own, some I've sold.

[Brutuscz]

some more!!!

[Brutuscz]

I am not the worlds best photographer (for sure!!) The ginrin sanke pic was from last year...bought this fish at 4 inches..now about 14inches. Need an updated photo. The kohaku with 5 steps is tightening up and looks waaaay better than last years picture. The sanke is also improving steadily. The ginrin kohaku was not bred by blackwater...bred by steve stone at comets to koi. Growing like a weed and looking excellent. Sorry the photo's are not updated. I lost that beautiful goshiki to a heron..hate those damn birds!!!

[johnsmith]

I think US breeders are some of the MOST improved breeders in the world. But that is relative. I don't think I'll be laying any major bets on the Jamaican bobsled team winning major awards in major competitions over the Canadians or the Scandinavians any time soon, either.


I also think four or five US breeders could will major awards in the under 5 size consistantly in the next three years. JR

[luke frisbee]

Quote: Originally Posted by Brutuscz I am not the worlds best photographer (for sure!!) The ginrin sanke pic was from last year...bought this fish at 4 inches..now about 14inches. Need an updated photo. The kohaku with 5 steps is tightening up and looks waaaay better than last years picture. The sanke is also improving steadily. The ginrin kohaku was not bred by blackwater...bred by steve stone at comets to koi. Growing like a weed and looking excellent. Sorry the photo's are not updated. I lost that beautiful goshiki to a heron..hate those damn birds!!!

Bubba,
you ain't a breeder...do you have a mud pond?

[Brutuscz]

Wish I did have a mud pond...no, I'm not a breeder. I sell their fish, and raise some myself.