Karasugoi

[Regenmeneer]

Mike,

koi varieties that tend to grow large are single colored and close to the "origin" of koi, ie close to Magoi. Breeding for certain characteristics will give smaller gene pools, and thus less "healthy" offspring, which will not grow as large.

Now here's my two cents on Karasugoi and size. The original Karasu, that was derived from Magoi, was close to the Magoi genetically. Thus the original Karasugoi probably had a set of genetics that allowed it to become extra large koi. (Whether it did due to the quality of it's habitat and food is another matter).

Now to the modern Karasugoi that was derived from the experiment mentioned by you earlier. The parents were a Shusui and a Doitsu Nezugoi. These two varieties are genetically much further away from Magoi, and with this the broader gene pool, than the original Karasugoi. Also, Doitsu do not become as large as their Wagoi counterparts.

IMHO, these two combined could easily account for the "modern" Karasugoi not growing to extra large sizes, whereas the old Karasugoi might have easily had the potential to do so.

It's just an idea, let me know what you think?

Regenmeneer

[MikeM]

Reg: Some interesting thoughts. ...But, I'd not assume that doitsu koi are generally smaller.

[Regenmeneer]

I've been out of town for a few days, and noticed some posts from this thread are missing. Hope everyone will get back to the topic and repost.

Mike, I do think Doitsugoi are generally smaller than Wagoi. You hardly ever come across jumbo Doitsugoi.

[mrbradleybradley]

Quote: Originally Posted by MikeM Reg: Some interesting thoughts. ...But, I'd not assume that doitsu koi are generally smaller.

Yes, there some large doitsu around. I have seen a 93cm kumunoryu, Is that small ?

BB

[kgt1223]

Great topic. Much to absorb. Here are a couple that I have been fooling around with. My super huge whale of a yamabuki ogon always seems to throw a few dozen of these in her
spawn.

[MikeM]

But the family resemblance is strong ... they are carp. Koi genetics is a mountain of a subject and you just proved it.

[Regenmeneer]

BB,

93cm is large, and I would love to own a 93cm Kumonryu for sure.

I would like to hear some opinions on weather Doitsugoi are generally smaller than their Wagoi counterparts. But whatever the general consensus is on this, it does not take away anything from the fact that the modern Karasugoi is genetically further removed from the Magoi than the old Karasugoi. And thus IMHO a sufficient factor to modern Karasugoi not growing as big as lets say Chagoi and Kigoi.

Kiefer, they look real black. Are they Karasu or Magoi?

[johnsmith]

Those are black koi , not magoi. red bellies I bet? If they had white bellies they would be the karasugoi foundation taht leads to all other black and white karasugoi types. But these are 'crows' and very very nice ones- great deep black. They look great in these blue bowls but the minute you put them in a deep pond with black walls is the last time you will ever actually see them again! JR

[johnsmith]

Doitsu was actually added to nishikigoi to make them grow larger and faster. And even today if you look at world record carp fishing pictires, most will be doitsu goi.
Yet it is also true that many doitsu koi we see in the west tend to be short and stubby? I would speculate that that is down to the moment of culling where better patterns sell better than conformation ( since 90% of all doitsu are sold to beginners who are attracted to the bright coloring of baby doitsu). So we may be looking at an illusion of how the greater doitsu population grows when not culled for factors other than size and growth potential. Selective breeding is selective breeding- you 'select' one trait over others. JR

[Regenmeneer]

Just found a picture of my Hajiro, the subtle beauty in my pond. I guess I like the varieties from Karasu lineage.

Bought in 2001 as a 4" tosai, it was 24" last fall.