| Honmei
Join Date: May 2005 Location: Southern California Posts: 2,673
| Not to worry, Steve, I've been busy
To determine the scientific merit (or lack thereof) of various statements made in this thread I conducted peer group survey research on five koi BB’s, reviewed applicable literature and contacted Aquascience Research Group (the inventor and manufacturer of both Amquel and ClorAm-X). Results listed below. 1. The Research Instrument & Answers: Fact or Fiction: A Scientific Pop Quiz “All comments taken from a thread in another parish. While anyone can have an (and is entitled to their) opinion, scientific statements must either be true or false. So, are these statements scientific truths or junk science? Please rate ‘em. (Extra points given for actually proving a position you’ve taken)”
Question A. Sodium thiosulfate (ST) does not do anything but rid your system of chlorine and it is not 100% at that. True or False? Dr. Roddy Conrad on KoiVet: If enough ST has been added to react with the chlorine or chloramine, it does a 100% effective job on the chlorine or chlorine content of the chloramine. So the statement is false. Roark on Koiphen: False. There is no such thing as "only does this". All compounds have side effects. And it will knock the bejeepers out of chlorine. One of my favorite demos is adding some to a bottle of bleach, shaking it, letting it stand a minute, and then pouring the solution into a q-tank with a fish. No effects if you dosed it properly. Graham on Koi Shack: If sufficient amounts of ST are added to the system then 100% of the chlorine with be bound up...can't argue with a chemical reaction....so false? Lynn (Eluned) on Koi Shack: True then False: Thio only neutralizes chlorine, (whether in the form of chlorine or chloramine) but when correctly dosed, completely neutralizes the chlorine. It does not bind ammonia. It will also neutralize Potassium Permanganate, and may have limited efficacy as a chelator.
Question B. If you have chloramines, it will not break down the chlorine/ammonia bond very well, if at all. True or False? Dr. Roddy Conrad on KoiVet: False. ST will take care of the chlorine content of chloramine immediately on mixing. Roark on Koiphen: False. Works fine. It just doesn't do anything to the ammonia. The biofilter will generally deal with this nicely however. Lynn (Eluned) on Koi Shack: False: Thio will completely break the chlorine:ammonia bond and neutralize the chlorine, but it will not alter the ammonia toxicity.
Question C. You are then left with excess ammonia in your system and some chlorine. True or False? Dr. Roddy Conrad on KoiVet: False. You are not left with any chlorine in the system if enough ST has been added. The ammonia content is negligible (unless the water exchange is more than 25% of the pond volume and the chloramine content of the added water is very high).
Roark on Koiphen: False. No chlorine if dosed properly. Ammonia however remains and is dealt with by the filter. Lynn (Eluned) on Koi Shack: True then False: The ammonia remains, but if the correct amount of thio was added for the chlorine charge, the chlorine will all be neutralized.
Question D. You CAN NOT tell me that that isn't stressful on your Koi, even if only slightly. I have had many people tell me that when they do a water change with Sodium thiosulfate they see their Koi flash. The Koi are flashing because the GILLS are being burned. True or False? Dr. Roddy Conrad on KoiVet: False, unless there was not enough ST added.
Roark on Koiphen: Koi flash for any number of reasons... adding fresh water being one of them. Adding water often causes a change in the pH, ORP, KH, etc. ANY of these things can cause fish to flash. Easy way to tell: Run a chlorine test! Schildkoi on Koi Shack: False!!!!! The Koi are flashing due to a chemistry change in the water and the gills are "irritated", not necessarily "being burned". Graham on Koi Shack: Rubbish.....as Steve stated it's just the fish adapting to the slightly different water chemistry....ST is totally safe and with in common sense levels can't be OD'd... Lynn (Eluned) on Koi Shack: False: Although you cannot tell some people anything, the poster does not seem to understand the chemistry of dechlorination. Flashing from a water change could be due to any number of reasons. Because I am a freak, I dump thio in a muck bucket floating in the pond, then put the hose in the bucket. Fresh water overflows into the pond only after it contacts the thio. I want the chlorine neutralized before it can hit the gills. The ammonia in a 10% water change with 2 ppm chloramine, would give 0.2 ppm ammonia (if I did the math correctly). Very little of that would be in the toxic form, at the normal temp and pH of my pond. It would also be quickly consumed by my biofilter. lately I've been using some ClorAm-x along with the thio - just because I have a huge tub of it. True flashing following a water change may be due to changes in temperature. Koi also seem to enjoy playing under water returns, so that behavior may be misinterpreted as a stress response.
Question E. If you are using Sodium thiosulfate and any kind of binder, that holds the ammonia in your system, it is dangerous because salt can release the ammonia back into your system. True or False?
Dr. Roddy Conrad on KoiVet: False. Salt will not release the ammonia back into the system from a binder unless the binder is specifically the resin solid type of binder that is salt sensitive. Amquel and ChlorAmX are not affected by salt. Roark on Koiphen: False. The chlorine goes to chloride. It's a one-way street with ST. Schildkoi on Koi Shack: FALSE!!!!!!!! That is simply a Myth based on the use of Zeolite which binds ammonia within it. When this is exposed to salt it will in fact release the ammonia. The same does NOT hold true with ST or other binders such as Amquel. Michael Anderson (MCA) on Koi Shack: False....salt lets zeolite release ammonia....not a dechlorinator made of ST Graham on Koi Shack: Actually zeolite only absorbs NH4 (ammonium) and therefore can only release ammonium back...the pH of the water dictates whether it changes to ammonia or stays as NH4. This is the reason that it doesn't always work for people. Lynn (Eluned) on Koi Shack: False, zeolite will release ammonia if subjected to an increase in salinity (constant salinity has no effect). Binders are band aids and do not last forever. They can be used under two very different scenarios. The simplest use of binders is when a large change using chloramine treated water is performed on a mature pond. Binders used during cycling a new filter require much more frequent monitoring. At some point binders break down and the ammonia will go back into the water. However, the system is not static. There should be biofiltration involved, and the biobugs will strip the ammonia from the binder and convert it into nitrite. At the same time, the fish are continuing to excrete ammonia through their gills. In a pond with a mature biofilter, thio can be used for small water changes because the increase in ammonia is usually minimal (comparable to the spike seen a couple hours after heavy feeding with protein-rich food.) Even following a large water change using a binder, the biobugs will scavenge the ammonia before the binder breaks down. Not all binders have the same half-life in the pond, and water chemistry probably affects stability. That is why using binders during cycling is tricky.
Question F. Also with a binder like Amquel, it will stay in your system and build up to the point that is not healthy for your Koi. True or False?
Dr. Roddy Conrad on KoiVet: This can be true only in extreme circumstances, but it can be true. Amquel and ChlorAmX both reduce pond ORP reading by increasing the organic load in the water. Roark on Koiphen: False. Amquel is metabolized by certain bacteria in the system and it degrades chemically as well. Reasonable doses cause no ill effects. Schildkoi on Koi Shack: I guess that in theory this could in fact be "possible" but highly unlikely! Michael Anderson (MCA) on Koi Shack: False....otherwise we would not have to add additional Amquel at each new water change. (personally I use ST) Lynn (Eluned) on Koi Shack: True sometimes: as mentioned above, if "it" refers to ammonia, in a new pond scenario, yes the ammonia does stay in the system, and as the koi continue to excrete ammonia it does build up, and if the binder is not stable, you may run into problems if the biofilter is not doing its job. Amquel will not harm the koi - as long as it does not contain Stress coat or other crap that coats the gills.
Question G. Chloramex is not Amquel in that it does not bind, it OXIDIZES ammonia, chlorine and chloramines. True or False?
Dr. Roddy Conrad on KoiVet: False. ChlorAmX and Amquel are the same chemical from the same manufacturing plant with different vendor labels. Amquel does NOT oxidize ammonia or chlorine or chloramine. It chemically binds it. Roark on Koiphen: Dunno. I need to look at the molecule... but I'm here to tell you I *really* doubt it. Oxidation of ammonia happens generally only at high temps and with some seriously aggressive compounds... but I'll look before I answer for sure. Schildkoi on Koi Shack: I haven't a clue...never used Chloramex but have been told it is Amquel under a different trade name. If so, then False, otherwise I haven't a clue but seriously doubt that it could oxidize a chemical in this manner. Michael Anderson (MCA) on Koi Shack: False...There is liquid amquel and powdered amquel. Chloramx is powered amquel. It does not oxidize the other chemicals or it would be also oxidixing the fish gills...which would be very bad karma. I have never had a problem using chloramx. Graham on Koi Shack: same product...and it's not an oxidizer...it's binder like all the others Lynn (Eluned) on Koi Shack: False, but also true. ClorAm-X is a binder, not an oxidizer. The original Amquel is the same chemical as ClorAm-X: the chemist owned the formula but the company owned the Amquel name. They have parted ways, so the current Amquel (Pond Plus etc) formulation is a completely different chemical, while ClorAm-X is the same product as the Amquel I used to use 10 years ago. Plain dry ClorAm-X does not contain buffers, and may cause a drop in alkalinity. (It is easy enough to add a spoonful of bicarb.) Most of the liquid Amquel formulations are buffered. Factoid: ClorAm-X is a two-sided compound. One end reacts with ammonia and the other with chlorine, so you don't need to dose any higher if your water is treated with chloramine instead of chlorine.
Question H. Chloramex is not a chemical that stays in your system. True or False?
Dr. Roddy Conrad on KoiVet: I don't know the lifetime of ChlorAmX or Amquel in pond water, so can't competently comment on the correct answer to this comment. Schildkoi on Koi Shack: See above disclaimer and then I would say that it does, True (if not diluted down through water changes. Michael Anderson (MCA) on Koi Shack: True...but few chemical stay in your pond forever without reacting with something else or breaking down in to simplier compounds. It is not "if" but "when". Lynn (Eluned) on Koi Shack: YMMV: ClorAmX lasts at least 2-3 days in my water chemistry. From my perspective, that is plenty long.
Question I. This is why Chloramex is not bad like Amquel can be when it builds up in your system. True or False?
Dr. Roddy Conrad on KoiVet: ChlorAmX and Amquel are the same chemical so this statement makes no sense whatsoever. Schildkoi on Koi Shack: Again see disclaimer but would have to answer "False" Michael Anderson (MCA) on Koi Shack: False If that were true many folks would never have to purchase amquel or chloramx again. We know that is not the case. Lynn (Eluned) on Koi Shack: False (interesting new spin on why ClorAm-X is better than Amquel, but I don't agree with the rationale.) Some Additional Comments I Thought Worth Sharing: JR on NI’s Koimag: Here's an interesting thought? If you add tap water with chloramines (ammonia bound to chlorine) to your pond as a routine water change and you also add baking soda to add alkalinity (and increase pH in the process) you are actually insuring, or at least increasing odds depending on organic load in your water, that some gill damage will occur since at a pH above 8, more than ten percent of the ammonia freed from treated chloramine will be of the deadly species, the un-ionized ammonia form.
Add to this, a routine PP treatment to polish water and you have a methodical erosion of the gills leading to health issues down the road when a koi is challenged by water quality, parasites or infection. Will you ever be able to trace the problem back to the root cause to determine cause of death? Probably not, but an examination of gills could have revealed thickened and scared gill cells from years of subtle erosion and burning. Fish pathologists tell us that this is environmental gill disease- represented by epithelial hypertrophy and localized necrosis in cases of high levels of chlorine. And that chronic exposure leads to epithelial hyperplasia with associated respiratory distress. In later cases this can combine with kidney and liver problems to guarantee premature death at some point.
You can appreciate why chloramines ( a combo of ammonia, an additional gill insult, and chlorine) is a really bad customer both short term in high doses and long term even in low doses. Dr. Roddy Conrad on KoiVet: And YES if there is zeolite in the system, apply salt and the ammonia is released, even if the salt content is only 0.2%, a significant portion of the ammonia will be released from the zeolite. The problem with a gross overcharge of ST is that one of its decomposition products is hydrogen sulfide. At normal ST doses, the gradual release of hydrogen sulfide accompanying the normal decay of ST won't be a problem, but with a massive dose as Daniel describes [5 lbs of ST per 100 gal], there is enough ST decomposition products to kill the fish in a few days. It won't happen right away, because it takes the ST a while to decompose. Dr. Roddy Conrad on Koiphen: Sodium thiosulfate instantly takes care of the chlorine in chloramine, as well as straight chlorine. The reaction to get rid of the chlorine with either chloramine or chlorine is instantaneous on mixing of the sodium thiosulfate and the chlorine or chloramine. The reaction of sodium thiosulfate with chloramine produces ammonia. Assume you are doing a 20% water change and there is 1 PPM chloramine in the water. 1 PPM chloramine neutralized with sodium thiosulfate becomes 0.2 (20% water exchange) times 17/51.5 (molecular weight of ammonia divided by molecular weight chloramine) = 0.06 PPM ammonia level in the pond. 0.06 PPM is too low to even measure, and is safe for the fish anyway! My point is that it is perfectly safe to dechlorinate with sodium thiosulfate unless you are doing a 100 % water change and there is a huge 5 PPM chloramine concentration in the makeup water. Only then can the ammonia from the chloramine reaction with sodium thiosulfate get up to a 1.5 PPM ammonia level to give a possible real fish problem So all those warnings about using sodium thiosulfate to dechlorinate water containing chloramines is just so much hype from folks making a profit selling the ammonia binding products to my way of thinking about the actual technology in action. REC on KoiVet: Let me add a comment... a few years back I called the Amquel manufacturers and asked how long it stays viable in the water. I actually got a decent answer from one the chemists (and a koi keeper) who told me that while there are variables (amount of ammonia, amount of chlorine, dose rate, etc), basically we could expect to see residual effects of Amquel for about four days. Keep in mind that I asked the question in the framework of PP use, not chlorine/ammonia protection. Lee B on Koiphen: I've never actually looked for the answer before, but if the info sheets on AmQuel and ChlorAm-X are to be believed, they are *both* listed as being HOCH2 SO3 Na, or sodium hydroxymethanesulfonate (easy for YOU to say!).
Funny, I *distinctly* remember sitting in a seminar and being told that ChlorAm-X was similar to, but better than AmQuel, as ChlorAm-X had better buffers. Have I been hoodwinked - again
Oh well, it is (at least for the time being) still cheaper than AmQuel ... 2. Threads where this Research Instrument was posted (in case you wish to go see for yourself): Nishikigoi International KoiMag: http://members4.boardhost.com/koimag/msg/1154106653.html Roark’s Discussion Board: http://www.click2roark.com/cgi-win/weborder.exe?operation=wbfetch&document=2006072812 0022 KoiVet: http://www.koivetforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=21162 Koiphen: http://koiphen.com/forums/showthread.php?t=46574 The Koi Shack: http://www.koishack.com/forum/index.php/topic,2752.0.html 3. Applicable literature: Aquascience Research Group Product Info: http://www.aquascienceresearch.com/Products.htm ClorAm-X fact sheet: http://www.aquascienceresearch.com/PDFs/ClorAm-X PDS.PDF Amquel fact sheet: http://www.aquascienceresearch.com/ProductInfo/AmQuel.htm ST product detail: http://www.aquaticeco.com/index.cfm/fuseaction/product.detail/iid/5688/cid/1598 AKCA, Pond Water Chemistry, by Norm Meck http://www.akca.org/kht/H2oQual.pdf AKCA, Fish Health Management, by Dr. Arthur Lembke http://www.akca.org/library/koimed1.htm Chlorination http://water.me.vccs.edu/courses/ENV149/chlorinationb.htm Arlington, VA Dept. of Environmental Services: http://www.arlingtonva.us/departments/environmentalservices/uepd/wquality/EnvironmentalServicesFish.aspx San Francisco PUC – Chloramine Conversion Project: http://facilities.stanford.edu/environment/Stanford_Fish_E.pdf The Singapore Koi Club, Medications http://www.singaporekoiclub.com/knowledge/medication.html OIE, Manual of Diagnostic Tests for Aquatic Animals 2003 http://www.oie.int/eng/normes/fmanual/A_00014.htm Guidance Manual for the Disposal of Chlorinated Water http://www.vita-d-chlor.com/specs/AWWARFDechlorGuides.htm 4. Aquascience Research Group: On 1 Aug 2006 at 1000 hours I contacted John F. Kuhns, the owner of Aquascience Research Group and inventor or both Amquel and ClorAm-X [ph: 1 (816) 842-5936] He kindly consented to “take” the test and patiently explained his answers in such detail that even I could understand. FYI, Mr. Kuhn said that the “Correct” answer to each and every question is “False.” He explained that, yes, Amquel and ClorAm-X are essentially the same product, with the same patented active ingredient; only minor things, like buffers, differ. Since both products are the same, they work the same: They bind ammonia (they do not oxidize it). And, finally, since both products are the same, they last in the pond the same length of time. Here’s hoping you’ve learned as much as I have! |
07-27-2006
#11 (permalink)
Quote: 
Line