Remove Chlorine and Chloramine

[dcny]

Don, thanks for taking the time and effort to put that together. It was very educating.

[bekko]

Your turn Russell.

[koiczar]

Quote: Originally Posted by KoiCop If, and I repeat if, there was a safety issue involved I'd be the very first ponder to ditch ST. But there isn't. ST has been safely used in ponding (for gosh knows how long) by thousands and thousands of folks around the world and is dirt cheap. Along comes an expensive new product with a slick marketing campaign to carve out market share, and now ST is dangerous? I'm calling bullshit on that. Chloramex is a fine product and certainly has it's place in a ponder's chem chest. But please stop the smear campaign on ST unless your knowledge is more substantive than some anonymous phone monkey at the local Water Department, a Sales Rep at ASR and your local dealer. Thanks,

Hey Don

Nice try! First off, I have 7 local dealers, 6 of which are within 15 minutes of my house. Russ is 70 miles away. His being a local dealer has no bearing on my statements. Neither does the fact that, at my house, I happen to have a water supply that uses NO CHLORINE/CHLORAMINES to dissenfect our source water - hence, I DO NOT NEED TO USE ANY OF THE PRODUCTS BEING SPOKEN ABOUT ON THIS THREAD - OR ALL THE OTHERS YOU SPENT SO MUCH TIME GATHERING INFO ON (which by the way was very well done).

As far as I'm concerned, I really don't care what you use in your pond. The way I look at it is IF IT WORKS - GREAT, IF IT DOESN'T, OPEN YOUR BANK BOOK AND BUY MORE FISH!! That was the simple point I was trying to make. Again, it could come down to a case of "PENNY WISE AND POUND FOOLISH"!!

As a pond builder, I only use Ultimate when first filling a customers new pond or one that has been retrofitted with new equipment. Sure, I could go "cheap" and use ST. But, tell me, would you risk YOUR business reputation for a few dollars?? I think not!!

Also, you can call BS on anything you want and attack people for sht&*())ng on a product you believe in, but just make sure you get the right person/name!!

Mike

[Nancy M.]

Hi Don
Excellent job, on aquiring all that info, isn't John a nice man to to talk with, his knowledge is amazing. There is another guy who is Johns, right hand man there by the name of Troy Pyle, his knowledge will knock your socks off as well, if you talk to him tell him koichick said hi. The only product that aqua science does not produce for Kordon is Amquel+ and the new pond amquel + concentrate. Kordon went to a different source for those products. So those would be products I would question before I ever questioned the old and relieable products, such as ST & Amquel. ( and I am not knocking them or questioning them it was just a statement).

[Rich L]

Don, you surprise me. Your post is the best I’ve seen on the subject. It’s easy for new comers to understand and informative enough that it can be used for years to come when explaining chlorine/chloramine treatment.

You must have missed Koiczar’s statement about not having any reason to support Russ’s statements because he’s a dealer located 70 miles away. Mike had said to many folks that he has an "arrangement" with Russ. Does that mean he’s a liar? I would hope that’s not the case.

Do you know anything about that?

Anyway, Nice going Don.

[Clay]

Don, wonderful info with a ton of information - THANK YOU!

Rick

[Russell Peters]

Quote: Originally Posted by Rich L Don, you surprise me. Your post is the best I’ve seen on the subject. It’s easy for new comers to understand and informative enough that it can be used for years to come when explaining chlorine/chloramine treatment. You must have missed Koiczar’s statement about not having any reason to support Russ’s statements because he’s a dealer located 70 miles away. Mike had said to many folks that he has an "arrangement" with Russ. Does that mean he’s a liar? I would hope that’s not the case. Do you know anything about that? Anyway, Nice going Don.

Every time I see a post from Rich that implies that Mike and I have some "arrangement", I pause and wonder what it might be. Mike and I have known each other for seven years. Over the years we have become really good friends. Mike is totally "Koi Kichi", as I am and we enjoy looking at and talking Koi. I started carrying a better grade of Koi last year and have made some great connections in Japan. We invited Mike to come with us to Japan last October on a buying trip. It was a lot of fun having him along because he and I are both like kids in a candy store. Mike pays for his airline ticket, his food, his transportation, his hotel and for the Koi he picks out. If this is an "arrangement", then I don't see the benefit, except that Mike is in Japan. His Koi are costing him way more than they would if he just bought them from me when I brought them back.
This weekend, Mike and I went to the Portland show together. He got up at 2 AM, drove to my store, helped me load up and then we headed to Portland. Mike became a captive, as I do not like to stop and he smokes cigarettes. He only got to stop 3 times the whole way up. I bought the gas and paid for the room, I was going any way, Mike paid for his own food and bought two banquet tickets, one was for me. I am still having a hard time seeing the "arrangement". This is two friends having a great time at a great Koi show.
Mike buys all of his Koi pond supplies and food from three of the local dealers in his area, he does not buy from me, and I don't expect him to as it is not part of the "arrangement". You see, we are just good friends.
Rich, are you implying that I give Mike kickbacks or pay him? If you are, I wish you would just come out and say it, rather than making blind implications. I have never given Mike any pay or Kickbacks. By the way, Mike is a licensed contractor and has his own business. We are just friends, and enjoy the hell out of talking about, and looking at Koi.
Please stop trying to stir things up.

Russ

[Rich L]

Gee, I dunno Russ! It's Mike that told people you and him had an "arrangement". People have also claimed to have heard Mike refer to Your stock as "our" koi and statements like "we" when referring to ownership of your koi.

Very confusing to me. What he's saying and what you're saying.

I'm not saying anything. Other than I suggest you refer to his statement above where he claims to have no preference to you over other dealors. You yourself state you have a 'closer' relationship with him than he currently has with other dealors.

I'm certain all this confusion is due to my advanced age.

[Russell Peters]

Hi Don,

I just want to start by saying that I am really sorry that this has gotten so blown out of proportion. I have met you several times, and I know you are a great guy.
People that know me, know that it does not take much to get me riled up, and when I beleive something, whether it be right or wrong, I get irritated when my toes get stepped on. I over reacted to your comment about "phone monkeys and sales reps", so I do apologize for that. It is not the point of this board to let ourselves get to the point that our arguments make enemies of other Koi lovers.
I am very impressed with how thorough your research was, and as it turned out, I did learn something. The ClorAm-x I get says on the label it "removes
chlorine", I assumed that it worked the same as Ultimate because the label on the Ultimate says it "removes chlorine". The Ultimate removes it by oxidizing it, so I figured it meant the same thing. My mistake!
I still do stand by what I say though, and let me tell you why. Five years ago, during a heat wave, I decided to do a 20% water change on a tank at the store. I only used sodium thiosulfate then. Since it was really hot, I knew I should add more ST because the water department usually increases the chloramines when it gets hot to help disinfect. I put in the ST and began to fill the tank. I could see the top of the tank from my office, so when the water got high enough I went out to turn the water off. When I got to the tank, it was just in time to see some of the Koi rolling over and dying. The ST left so much additional ammonia in the water that it burned their gills up and they died. Within days, I had a lot of customers saying they lost Koi in the same manner. To me the problem is how does the average person learn how to deal with the right dosage of ST in a situation like that, especially if you are making it up yourself. My point before was that even if it gets rid of the chlorine, it leaves ammonia in the system. If it is only for two hours, it is still stressful for the Koi. My other point was, if you use a binder for ammonia, it is dangerous because the chemical binder builds up in the system. I was wrong about the salt releasing the ammonia, but your panel did agree that a binder like Amquel can build up in the system and become a problem.
We tell our customers that if they are doing a small water change, 3% - 5%, use ST, and if they are doing large water changes, then use Ultimate or ClorAm-x. I have never had a similar problem with ClorAm-x or the Ultimate like I did with ST, when my Koi died. Also, I have never had any flashing except when using ST. I beleive the flashing is caused by the excess ammonia that the ST leaves behind.
Don, I hope this helps you understand why I believe what I do and that worse case, we just agree to disagree.

Russ

[Russell Peters]

Quote: Originally Posted by Rich L Gee, I dunno Russ! It's Mike that told people you and him had an "arrangement". People have also claimed to have heard Mike refer to Your stock as "our" koi and statements like "we" when referring to ownership of your koi. Very confusing to me. What he's saying and what you're saying. I'm not saying anything. Other than I suggest you refer to his statement above where he claims to have no preference to you over other dealors. You yourself state you have a 'closer' relationship with him than he currently has with other dealors. I'm certain all this confusion is due to my advanced age.

Hi Rich,

All Mike said in this thread in refering to me was "His being a local dealer has no bearing on my statements". I spoke to Mike about this and he and I both wonder how you can take that statement and turn it into your statement "He claims to have no preference to you over other dealers." Rich the two statements are not even the same thing and they are quotes from this thread.
Mike's statement of "His being a local dealer has no bearing on my statements", means that what he said about sodium thiosulfate was not influenced by what I have said about sodium thiosulfate. Mike is making up his own mind. For some reason what you get out of it is "He claims to have no preference to you over other dealers." They are just not one and the same and I hope you can see that because, "I'm certain all of this confusion
is due to my advanced age", would then, certainly apply.
Mike and I are good friends and on certain levels it does give us a "closer" relationship than other dealers, but Mike still supports other dealers.

I met Sharon and Dan Olson this weekend at the Portland show, they are very nice people. They are not shy about saying that they will only buy Koi from one dealer in the US, and only deal with one breeder in Japan. Keokoi is a strong supporter of Kevin, and without hestation he will tell you that the only one he buys fish from is Genki Koi. Don has come on this board and started threads about Koi from Eastern, because he really likes Ken, Nancy and Frank. Everywhere I look, I see strong loyalties by individuals to dealers and you have a problem with Mike and I. Why is that? What are we doing that is wrong? Why is it a problem that Mike says "our" and "we"? Is there something wrong with that? Is it illegal? Are we commiting a crime? Who cares, but you? Please fill all of us in on what you think is going on.

Russ