Yume Koi Has Been Hit With Khv

[MikeM]

Well, let's focus on Step One... identifying the immune fish. I think what you described could be a survivor-carrier.

Yes, Sakai and his ilk are ready to experiment... but with KHV? If they did, I think it would be at separate facilities and in secret. ...OK, I'll give you that one.

Hmmmm. Short memories and over-long memories and imagined memories. I was over at a smiley-face board. I'd not rely on accurate memories.

[bekko]

I don't think that any koi breeder should be trying to develop a KHV-immune strain. That should be left to the professionals. There are facilities which are designed, staffed and intended for doing this sort of thing and doing it safely.

The trouble is that KHV-immune koi may never rise to the top of the list of priorities at facilities which are equipped to do it correctly. It is unlikely to be done in the US because the economic impact does not justify the expense. The potential economic impact does exist in Japan so perhaps a Japanese institution will find agency or foundation funding for the work. The Israelis seem to be committed to the vaccine route. Vaccines can be sold indefinitely so it is not surprising that there is public and private funding available. An immune strain can only be sold (or otherwise released to the public domain) once and then everyone will have it. So, there is unlikely to ever be much private funding available for developing an immune strain unless it is through a foundation or cooperative.

James, you said:

Quote: if negative [via PCR] we need to do an ELISA to see if the fish has produced any antibodies in response to being exposed in anyway to the virus.

But, Spike said above that:

Quote: We don’t know if all koi that survive a KHV outbreak develop antibodies (a/b) – we suspect they all won't but that many will. We don’t know if koi that develop a/b will become carriers – we suspect some will but don’t have a clue as to how many. We don’t know if koi that are carriers will test positive for a/b – we suspect some, or maybe even most, will but again don't have a good feel for what percentage.

You are not saying the same thing.

From what little I know of an ELISA test, the result is not always a 'yes' or a 'no', particularly for diseases we know so little about. The range of results is more like 'no, highly unlikely, somewhat unlikely, uncertain, likely, yes'. However, Spike is saying that the 'no' response may not exist for a KHV ELISA.

I am glad Spike reiterated that ELISA is just one tool in the KHV risk management bag-of-tricks and is not a panacea.

-stevehop kin

[JasPR]

well, there is caution and then there is hand ringing. Research and experimentation is not about emotional responses. It is just science. And science can be carried out by any thoughful person with adequate educational background.
Everyday, food carp are selectively bred for size, meat, disease resistance etc. Knowing the breeder community, I do think my theory is not realistic. But it is fun to talk about.

In the case of tests, I have seen a disturbing titilation with the idea that tests are NOT reliable and that the disease is a menance that has no bounds. It seems exciting and somehow singularly important for many of us amateurs that we see this as a disease that can't be stopped, hides for years, leaves no trail of evidence and siliently and methodically seeks out ponds to wipe out. Something like a science fiction movie. If you stop and think for a minute, these worries are emotionally driven and often seen as 'unique and brand new problems' to the beginner trying to get their head around this huge body of information. Yet , as you know Steve, herpes strains are downright common in the fish world. SVC is probably worse in terms of world danger than KHV. It is a disease that can be carried and it is a disease that absolutely will be passed onto the offspring of infected fish during spawning. Yet no commercial breeder has jumped out an eight story window to the best of knowledge?

I was a manager (for seven years) of a certified Vet lab employing 30 lab techs. We did CBCs, heart worm tests, parasite tests, blood profiles and all the other common stuff. I worshipped the EM in those days. I trust tests. But I also know how fallible they are. Assuming no human/tech error, these tests are influenced by age of materials, accuracy of equipment, sample size and quality and also the nature of the test itself. A test with many steps for instance is less reliable than one with no steps. In truth the old fashioned vet researchers will rely on a physical exam under EM to SEE the virus along with test results. As one old timer told me while I was on the AKCA steering committee for KHV research, " how do I know it is herpes? When we see it, we recognize it"! Hardly the stuff of a Noble prize winner but I believed that this old fella could work his way backwards and re-enforce his test results. ( By the way, that guy was THE FIRST to discover, identify and document herpes in ornamental cat fish from imports into florida)
IF I were a dealer, I would do BOTH nested PCR and ELISA to bracket results. One might even send a set of samples to two ,or even three, different labs. And in the case of a shipment, collecting from 3- 5 fish randomly and/or suspicious individual fish is also a good idea.
The point is, you overcome the inherent flaws in the path by redundancy and bracketing with bookend tests.
Beyond this? Well I'm not sure what would convince one not to be looking out that eighth floor window? Turn away from the ledge. JR