Help!! Supaverm Stinks..and I ain't to happy with koivet!!!

[dick benbow]

Gold fish and superverm is a no-no for sure. I'm sorry for your bad experience. I think the biggest problem with it's use is that it arrives in a big container and is broken down into smaller ones for sale. At this time the product is not totally mixed and towards the end of the dispercement from ther bigger container an extra "shot" of some of the unmixed ingredients get added in causing the poor results that have been experienced. truely sorry for your loss...lessons learned for those newbees reading....

make sure you know why they are flashing based on a scrape and microscope read, make sure you know the exact gallonage of your pond for exact dosage.Know the pros and cons of your medication of choice.

No one on any board deliberately lies to create harm in another's pond. I think in this case those that had good luck were fortunate to have a well mixed product and applied it correctly. This med was introduced by waddy from Infil and made a huge contribution to koi health at the time.

Bottom line in the medical field has always been whatever you do....do no harm.....

[REC]

Brut,

First, I am not going to defend KoiVet here or defend what is posted on KV.... BUT... there are a number of excellent threads on KoiVet about Supraverm with some interesting experiences.. many like yours.

While Supraverm has proven to be effective and many folks have had good results with it, we know there are problems with it. One of the biggest problems we know about is the accuracy of the mix. Supraverm is a suspension and as such, the solids will settle when the container is left standing for a period of time. Many dealers and even some koi clubs bought SV in bulk for re-packaging. If (and we know this is the case) the main container was not properly prepared (heavy mixing), the re-packaged mix may have been light in some cases and heavy in others. It is the latter that we strongly suspect is causing many of the problems with fish deaths and follow-on "scalding." I think I recall having this conversation on Koi-Bito as well.

Is this what happened to you?? We will never know but certainly you are not the first to experience this. And don't blame solely KV for this.. even the manufacturers say the same things that Dr J says about it.

User experiences and SV effectiveness is all over the map, some of it pretty sad. I am sure there are other variables involved such as water chemistry, etc. but I am not sure. In fact, given the lineage of SV as a heavy duty sheep dip, certainly that was enough evidence for me to know that it was not going in my pond. And that is why I stick with Prazi exclusively.

But I think the key point mentioned here was to never treat for anything unless you are sure it is there... scrape and scope. Shotgunning as a last result can work but there are inherent risks.. but that is for another thread. Flashing can be caused by many things, even a slight natural variation in water chemistry.

And why are you treating with nuflor?? Is there evidence of a bacterial infection?? Or is this a prophylactic treatment??

REC

[MikeM]

I know there are some mentions on the boards of using salt and supaverm together, but I'd suggest against doing so.

[Brutuscz]

Thanks for all the replies. Rec..I used nuflor because I saw the head down, tail up position. On koivet it said...this is usually a bacterial problem. The others weren't showing signs yet...so I thought it was an isolated thing involving only 2 koi. I figured, why wait...and gave them each a shot. They are hanging in there, but not eating yet. Most are eating fine...but still head down for some, redness for others. Results are variable. I think I will just keep up with the water changes. I regularly use koizyme. I will continue...since they have slime coat problem..I will try to protect them from ulcers. I am happy to see most are active and eating extremely well.
Will an injection of Dexamethasone help those two...or stress them more???
Thanks for all the help...again!!!

[REC]

I don't see a reason to use dex at this point...in fact, if you are suspecting a bacterial problem, using dex can just exasperate the problem as it dumps the immune system. Even in combination with nuflor, there is no need to use it. I only use dex in cases where severe physiological stress, such as electrical shock or the effects of being out of the water (jumpers) requires using a steriod to relieve muscular tension.

REC

[Brutuscz]

Thanks rec...no dex!! Just going to keep doing small water changes now. I don't want anyone to think I'm blaming the koivet site. It has always helped me. I am just really angry over my two hybrid fish. I bought the supaverm from a top dealer everyone knows...I don't think anything was wrong with it. I mixed it like crazy. Just my stupid luck!! I did notice that many looked better this morning since the water changes. Do you think the koizyme is safe...or will it cause more irritation?
I also don't think it was ever a bacterial issue. Just took a little longer for the meds to show it's side effect to more fish. When it was only two..I thought it was an issue with those two..then it became a pond wide thing...now I feel it was the supaverm. I actually wish I had never injected them. The anasthesia probably made things worse for them.. Another lesson I didn't need to learn with koi keeping!!!

[REC]

Koizyme is very innocuous so if you elect to use it, there is no problem doing so. If you are concerned that your fish are susceptible to a bacterial infection, then it might be wise to use Koizyme. But keep in mind that it is only active for a few days and then the aeromonas counts will return. Also, aeromonas are naturally occuring in all ponds and assist with the biological breakdown of nitrogen waste (read: feces). I just mention this because a clean pond with healthy water is a better long term preventative against bacterial infections than anything else. And cheaper, too... If the pond is healthy and the water perfect, let the fish's immune system handle the problem.

REC

[Brutuscz]

Can't thank you enough for this!!! I will continue to do water changes and keep it as clean as possible. Once the salt is close to zero..I will know the supaverm is all gone. I will continue small water changes until then. Then I will start the koizyme again. No use adding it if I'm just going to flush it out.$$$...out the window!!

[KoiCop]

sorry to hear about your problems. As REC and others have said, there are many threads on the various boards reporting & discussing adverse reactions to suprarverm. You might try looking at some of those threads since they might help to explain what happened and/or where you're headed.

There's also something I thought I'd point out about your prophylactic use of salt. While salt can help stimulate a koi's slime coat in the short run, in the long run it depletes (even strips) it. Sort of like spitting until you run dry and can't spit any more.

Now a healthy slime coat is a koi's first and foremost defense against pathogens and parasites. So, by keeping your pond salted to a steady .3% level this spring (to block trich & ich) I'm guessing you've actually helped cause the slime coat problem and have ended up making your koi more susceptible to bacteria/parasites. Good intentions, but . . .

Don't know of anyone who salts their koi just for drill anymore. Save it for when it's needed.

[marco]

Hi Brutuscz, sorry to read what happend to you again.
I just wanted to say that keeping salt at 0.3% for spring, you could probably kill the less resistant flukes and select all the resistant one.
And one more thing that we use to say to our farmer, is, that once Supaverm has frozen (that happen sometimes here in winter in our mountains), it begun toxic for the animals and they should not use it anymore.
I dont know how long a supaverm open bottle can be used, I 'll try to phone to Janssen laboratory, maybe oxydation is not good for the product, and I'll let you know about that.
Marco