American Nishikigoi--What is the Future?

[Brutuscz]

I always hear about this one..mystical, American grand champion!! Enough already...who owns this magical fish, and lets see a picture!!!

[aquitori]

Quote: Originally Posted by Brutuscz I always hear about this one..mystical, American grand champion!! Enough already...who owns this magical fish, and lets see a picture!!!

I will leave it as a mystical beast that in my mind I have created.

[johnsmith]

Deep thoughts tonight Mike M- cool stuff!

Brutuscz, Japanese talent has been over here many times over the years culling for USA farms. Toshi Igarashi from Marusada, for instance stayed here and culled for a production farm for a year. It happens but not all the ingredients are in place.

Mike made a profound observation in that it is a combination of oyagoi and culling that produces what we think of as a certain lineage.

It is also important to appreciate that every line effort tends to crash and burn and is NEVER static. The breeder who rests with a pair of breeders usually falls behind sooner or later. The genetic 'paint' is constantly be added to and sturred..
So by the time a breeder is selling koi to the west , the fish are 'done' in terms of being cutting edge or valauble contributors to the current trend.

JR

[dick benbow]

I have enjoyed this thread from the viewpoint of someone who knows about breeding, what happens in japan, the fine line between producing what you want and paying the bills, and who has worked with whom to reach the status of where they are today ie: dainichi in America. (might ask Brett about that one! )

Breeding is a learned art. You can teach it to relatives or foreigners. It's also
is an expensive proposition. With the KHV proposition much of the former "arraingements" of exhanging breeders can now make you vulernable to loseing the "farm".

and yes if you import Omosako shiro's and have someone else (even if they are schooled by the master himself) cull the spawn you do not have omosako
shiro's, only babies from that bloodline.

the art of developing your own style thru various bloodlines is a long and tedious journey. It's an effort fraught with lots of deadends, and in truth you really don't know what you have until 4-5 years before you can truely see the results of your coupling.

Domestic efforts in any country will be invaluable for the health and growth of the nishigoi industry. It just takes time and money and the support of local koi hobbyists to advance the cause.

[junglegeorge12]

Quote: Originally Posted by Sangreaal You know, this could read like the credits at the end of a movie. Bloodline Sakai Oyagoi Selected By So n' So Bred By So n' So's Koi Farm Culled By So n' So's Brother-in-Law Reared By So n' So's Hired Hands Grown Out by So n' So's Koi Kichi Neighbor Yet at the root of all this, the beginnings, the pregenitor of it all is Sakai. We can call the koi anything we want, but until the breeder steps out of Sakai's bloodline, the fish will remain Sakai, with any modifications being credited to the breeder who selected the oyagoi parent stock. Meaning that if the produce of the breeder stock turns out to be crapagoi and gets worse from there, the breeder gets credit for it. If the stock is improved from the original parent stock, the breeder gets credit for it. But the second outcrossings are introduced, the bet is off and now the breeder has started his own bloodline upon whom his name should be given instead of Sakai's. Marie

Wait a minute if Sakai used a Dainichi, then wouldn't the line be Dainichi rather than Sakai? Or would it be Matsunosuke? I'm getting a headache. Can you help us out Maurice?

Semantics sure are complicated.

[Brutuscz]

Quote: Originally Posted by aquitori I will leave it as a mystical beast that in my mind I have created.

Yer Killing me!!! I have always read there is one..but no one ever sees a picture!!! If it was one of my domestic koi...I would be screaming it from the rooftops!!! Oh...and rubbing all your noses in it..LOL!! Maybe one day...soon!!!

[aquitori]

Quote: Originally Posted by Brutuscz Yer Killing me!!! I have always read there is one..but no one ever sees a picture!!! If it was one of my domestic koi...I would be screaming it from the rooftops!!! Oh...and rubbing all your noses in it..LOL!! Maybe one day...soon!!!

HAHAHAHAHA, hey man I will be very happy to see an American Nishikigoi win....

[Sangreaal]

Quote: Originally Posted by junglegeorge12 Wait a minute if Sakai used a Dainichi, then wouldn't the line be Dainichi rather than Sakai? Or would it be Matsunosuke? I'm getting a headache. Can you help us out Maurice? Semantics sure are complicated.

*LOL* Aren't they?

IF Sakai used a Dainichi to cross into his line, the produce would be Sakai. If Sakai used Dainichi for both/all parents, the produce would be Dainichi, speaking from the bloodline perspective. With no outcrosses the line is 100% Dainichi.

Each time you outcross you are creating a new bloodline. You've woven new threads into the CARPet of koi, things that cannot be readily removed that can change the bloodline you're developing for good or ill. So outcrossing is a very serious thing, something introduced judiciously and with care when it is needed for the evolution of the line.

When the eventuality of making the decision to outcross arrives and is consummated, the credit taken for the line doesn't revert to the creator of the outcross bloodline (Dainichi) who had nothing to do with the designs of the breeder using it; the credit goes to the breeder (Sakai) because he orchestrated the entire crossbreeding and wove it into his own line.

Now that's not so complex, now is it?

M

[junglegeorge12]

Hmm, no it's not, but I don't think it's ever that simple, especially when outcrossing. How do we know that everything that is being outcrossed did not originate at Dainichi at some point?

Or at Mcdonalds for that matter, you know the koi in the drainage ditch back there? What if all the current bloodlines came from there and we are being sold a big line, and it is all simply a result of too much french fry oil and bathroom cleaners in the water during spawnings back in the 60s??? Hmm? Maybe they are ALL Mcdonald's koi!!! See, my headache didn't go away. Now imagine the lawsuit Mcdonald's would finally have against someone else! Hey, maybe it was the coffee and WE all have a lawsuit! Now if we can just figure out the Super Size recipe......

[koiczar]

Hey George, Marie

What do you get if you cross a McDonald's with a Burger King - Ronald your way!!???HaHaHaHa
That's a joke, son!!LOL

Seriously though, The old lines are so diluted as to no longer be pure enough to be called anything other than who the current breeder is. Dainichi, Sensuke, Torazo,Sadazo, Matsunosuke, Hamamatsu, Tomoin. The only ones I know of that are still breeding pure are Jimbei and Genjiro breeds - I believe Sensuke. If you know the oyagoi the breeder used to rear a particular fish you're interested in and you have the opportunity to see the parents first hand, it certainly helps in the selection process and definitely would increase your chance of getting a very decent fish. Other than that, why worry about who the breeder is or what bloodline they come from. Just pick what you like and sit back and enjoy the ride

Mike