Who Was the First to Breed Ochiba Shigure?

[Sangreaal]

Where did they originate, who was the breeder, how were they developed and what is being done now to continue the line?

Anybody know?

Marie

[MikeM]

Marie: Dr. Kuroki wrote in Modern Nishikigoi...

"They say there is a unique variety called 'Ochiba-shigure' in Shikoku. Of what lineage is it? Ochiba-shigure are koi with green and grey patterns, and came from the Cha-goi line, which in turn came from the Ogon. The first Ochiba-shigure was kept in Rinrin Park in Ehime, and has grown to be 90cm long. It won the Jumbo Prize at the 18th Z.N.A. National Nishikigoi Show in Imabari, and was so highly praised that it could be called a national treasure. Many Ochiba-shigure are seen in Shikoku. Some of them are excellent, as each scale appears clearly defined. The Ochiba-shigure of doitsu lineage are very beautiful, and are sought by some fanciers."

I find no mention of Ochiba in his earlier Manual to Nishikigoi, nor in the early English writings of Tamaki and Amano.

[Sangreaal]

Quote: Originally Posted by MikeM Marie: Dr. Kuroki wrote in Modern Nishikigoi... "They say there is a unique variety called 'Ochiba-shigure' in Shikoku. Of what lineage is it? Ochiba-shigure are koi with green and grey patterns, and came from the Cha-goi line, which in turn came from the Ogon. The first Ochiba-shigure was kept in Rinrin Park in Ehime, and has grown to be 90cm long. It won the Jumbo Prize at the 18th Z.N.A. National Nishikigoi Show in Imabari, and was so highly praised that it could be called a national treasure. Many Ochiba-shigure are seen in Shikoku. Some of them are excellent, as each scale appears clearly defined. The Ochiba-shigure of doitsu lineage are very beautiful, and are sought by some fanciers." I find no mention of Ochiba in his earlier Manual to Nishikigoi, nor in the early English writings of Tamaki and Amano.

Thanks for looking that up, Mike Was there any mention as to what year that was, or who bred it? And...is it still alive and on exhibition? Very interesting read. Thank you!

Marie

[MikeM]

I vaguely recall reading an interview with an old Niigata breeder who talked some about the development of Ochiba, but I don't recall the time frame, so tough to search for it. I believe the variety is relatively new... say 1970s with popular awareness in late '70s or early 80's? Kuroki refers to it as being gray with a greenish pattern... the Chagoi most appreciated in the post-WWII era were ones that were greenish brown. Referring to them as "green" is a bit misleading to those who do not understand that the "green" ones still were a shade of brown.

The Chagoi group were not particularly desirable among Japanese hobbyists in the post-WWII era. (Even Asagi ceased to be bred by very many breeders.) The focus was on the Gosanke and other colorful varieties. The popularity of the Chagoi group is really a fairly recent phenomenon. Ochiba have become popular, so there are a lot produced. Most are pretty ragged creatures with ill-defined pattern and flat gray base color. Sometimes you'll see one with a true Soragoi base color... a light bluish gray... and that makes the pattern pop. Personally, I like the few that have a yellowish-brown pattern, almost ochre, like an autumn leaf. But, the rust browns are nice! Since consumers like deeper color, Kohaku are being bred into Ochiba to create a redder pattern. On another board, we were discussing how this is causing some "Ochiba" to begin looking more like "Goshiki". There are Japanese breeders producing Ochiba mainly for bulk export, but my impression is that they are mainly being produced in bulk in Southeast Asia, China and domestically. Perhaps someone more up to date can chime in on that?

The breeder who fascinates me is Hosakai, the famous Asagi breeder. He has been doing a lot of experimental breeding mixing together Ochiba, Goshiki, Kohaku and Asagi. Some curios beauties come out of it.

Here are some photos to think about:

A Hosakai "Ochiba-Goshiki", which I refer to as a reticulated Goshiki

A conventional Ochiba (displayed at BKKS National 2004)

Another Hosakai "Ochiba Goshiki", this one showing her Asagi ground.

Another "reticulated Goshiki" (mine, which I acquired as a Goshiki and he has been consistently benched as a Goshiki.... but is he? )

A Doitsu Ochiba that you might confuse as being a Kohaku.

What's in a name?

[MikeM]

And, my favorite Ochiba among those listed on dealer sites currently... a Tanaka Ochiba with a pattern like Asagi.

[MikeM]

PS... I would dearly love to have the Tanaka Ochiba, but it is in a price range where the air is too thin for a Floridian adjusted to sea-level living.

[Sangreaal]

Out of the line up of ochiba that you posted, I really like your "goshiki" the best. Still, my favorite is the gold, brown or bronze/green or red on the soragoi blue ground with indigo netting.

Most of the ochiba I've seen out there are, well...poo poo. Very few really great specimens (that I've been able to find) of what I think Ochiba Shigure embodies--autumn leaves floating on water. Here are some of the best examples I could find (oddly slanted towards my initial choice of ochibas--imagine that. *LOL*)

Sakazume GR Ochiba Shigure (currently at keirin koi)


My Jumanji, lineage unknown:


Ogata Ochiba Shigure
I'm crediting the last two of these ochiba to Ogata only from memory--they could be from someone else, but unfortunately I didn't label them as I collected them back then like I do now. (If anyone recognizes them and can for sure name the breeder, please do)

Autumn, lineage unknown:


Although the ginrins are nice enough (and there was a beauty posted here on another thread some months ago), nothing seems to compare to the non-ginrin version with the blue soragoi netting ground to represent "Autumn Leaves" to me. (Maurice has a gorgeous one with rust colored "leaves" and really fine reticulation)

30 years of breeding still puts this variety in the early development stage, it would seem. The proflagration of the uglies attests to that. I love the history I'm learning from you on how ochiba originated! Fascinating stuff! But I worry that the variety is getting a little too diverse too soon--it should not be able to be confused with any other variety, though the experimental crosses will spawn all kinds of variation.

What, in your opinion, was used to create the blue netting/gold patterned type as illustrated in the Ogata photos? Soragoi for sure, but would a blue soragoi/gold chagoi cross do that? The kohaku patterning would almost seem impossible in that cross.

I really like that Tanaka Ochiba--though like someone at another parish said, looks like leaves on the bottom of the pond instead of floating on water. Nonetheless, a beatiful rendition...

Marie

[MikeM]

Patterning is by chance. So, out of a million fry, some will have the patterning a person likes. Many Ochiba fry, however, develop with smears of weak color, like the original Hariwake. It is the contrast of intense pigments that creates the strong impression, and that is not very common.

I have no idea if the Ogata Ochiba you posted were from Ochiba x Ochiba, or Soragoi x Chagoi, or some other permutation.... But, blue-gray Soragoi are apparently pretty rare. DickB observed a couple of weeks ago that the best way to find a good Soragoi is to find a good Ochiba whose "leaves" fade away. LOL

[Sangreaal]

Yeah, I've looked and looked for a blue soragoi for months, turning up alot of greys from light to sooty. Finally found a Hiroshin soragoi that might work, though I am a bit concerned over its conformation. It's a little long and lanky, with a hint of gold/brown on head, tail and motoguro, a 7" tosai. It's a good inch or two longer than some of its siblings I've seen, and out of those, each one was a different conformation and skin type. One was a very pretty doitsu, and I'm not so fond of doitsu types as a rule, simply because I'm a scalation and fukurin nut. But it had the best conformation of the four I saw, smooth sleek lines of power. The other two were ginrin, both smaller than the one I selected and the doitsu. One was really built up in the shoulder area and had a powerful build overall, really musclebound looking. The other had a smaller framework and a little narrow. No two of the four were really anything alike.
The one I chose:

Really ochiba-like, huh. (comments on conformation, etc, welcome please)

I am not at all surprised that there will only be a handful of nicely patterned ochiba out of a gazillion fry. I'd expect that from such a new line.

Lots of study yet for me to do before any breeding attempt, thus collecting various tosai to observe how they grow out and develop first-hand.

Marie

Quote: Originally Posted by MikeM Patterning is by chance. So, out of a million fry, some will have the patterning a person likes. Many Ochiba fry, however, develop with smears of weak color, like the original Hariwake. It is the contrast of intense pigments that creates the strong impression, and that is not very common. I have no idea if the Ogata Ochiba you posted were from Ochiba x Ochiba, or Soragoi x Chagoi, or some other permutation.... But, blue-gray Soragoi are apparently pretty rare. DickB observed a couple of weeks ago that the best way to find a good Soragoi is to find a good Ochiba whose "leaves" fade away. LOL

[B.Scott]

I find it very hard to find a pleasing traditional Ochiba. Ginrin don't do it for me and the doitsu varieties I can't stand. It took me a long time to find an Ochiba I liked with a nice pattern and good reticulation. I tend to view good Ochiba patterns in two types... the "autumn leafs" and the Kohaku patterns. This fish falls into the Kohaku type.



This male Oofuji Ochiba was 40 cm whan I bought it at the end of March and has since passed the 50 cm mark. It had gotten a bit darker and I'm hopping the thin spot on the sholder will fill in a bit at some point. I wish I could take it to the National in Arcen but it is just too many 400km trips to bring it, attend the show and then fetch it, plus an extra month in QT for the little guy when he gets home to be worth while.

B.Scott