Shotgun approach

[schildkoi]

Yeah Rich, what was I thinking? LOL As for toads and frogs getting into the pond and bringing parasites.....I don't think anyone has experienced that more than me...LOL Funny thing is that although there may be parasites in the water, they don't replicate to epidemic forms if the environment is right...thus no need for shotgunning.

Steve

[koiczar]

Steve and Rich

Very valid points.Yes, Grant has been teaching this for years. It didn't come from ORP meters and the like, it came from learning about koi and what constitutes a good environment. A lot of this info came from Japan and Grant's many years as a hobbyist and dealer.

If I may, let me ask both you gentlemen, how big are your ponds, what is your fish load and how much filtration do you have? This might help the rest of us get a feel for what you're talking about concerning fish load/filtratrion.

Mike

[Rich L]

Mike, my point was that good koi husbandry is simple. Just follow the rules and it will all work out. Hobbyists get into discussions about ‘my bead is better than your microscreen, etc., etc.’ when bottom line, most are effective if installed and operated properly.

I don’t refer to Grant as a hobbyist or a dealer when discussing his knowledge. He’s far beyond that. In fact I cringe a little every time he’s bundled up with the run of the mill dealer/pond builder. Many of the most experienced hobbyists, who know him, don’t see him as just another resource.

You would be better off to ask Steve about all the ponds he’s built and designed. He has designed many and is one of the few on line that designs a pond in a systematic process that ends up with synergy. Every component in the system adds value and must be compatible with the system’s needs. He also considers the koi as a part of the system and maintains the stocking in the same way he reliably cleans filters. I was a systems test specialist for the Navy and fully appreciate his approach to synergy in a pond. Hummm! You’d almost think he was an engineer in a passed life.

As to myself, I haven’t had a large pond in about four years. When I did, it was always UNDER stocked for the pond and filter. When growth and stocking levels became a problem I culled. I never could get a firm handle on the cause but I suffered a loss of all my large koi but one. I experiment with new components continuously and one of the valves leaked into a barrel of beads I had taken off line. The slow refilling and return of the bad water was probably continuing for a few months and the first opportunistic infection met no resistance. I no longer had a need for the large pond at the remote site so I culled down to seven and now to three that I didn’t want to get rid of.

I have the 1500 gallon tank I used to use as a med tank so it’s not set up for the energy efficiency I continuously harp on. It’s intentionally designed to provide an environment better than is needed for a pond so sick fish will be better able to recover. When my pond is overstocked, I cull. If someone wants the culls, they better come over with bags NOW because the culls are coming out NOW. I’m not one to wait

The turnover is three times an hour. That isn’t needed in a normal koi pond. The bead filter is rated to the turnover and is dumped every day. That feeds a fluidized bed sand filter which was large enough for my friends 15,000 converted swimming pool. It did have three submerged filter bays in parallel. I have built a number of bio-filter types and the huge surface area/footprint and ease of construction make fluidized beds one of my favorites. For only a few dollars and a few hours, I can throw one together and get it on line.

I know you’re trying to bring out something that you can use as a way of trying to point your finger at someone else. That’s your style. Like your earlier negative referral to Toyoma Koi. If you can put down others, you think it makes you look good. That doesn’t always work.

I’m beginning to see why your occasionally asked if you’ve been dropped on your head.


Steve,

The referral to toads was an inside joke. I was just poking fun at a friend who will remain anonymous, but you did bring it around to a good lead into normal pond environments and the value of knowing when to treat.

[schildkoi]

Stocking rates? I prefer 1 female per 1000 gallons (male per 500). That's what I maintained in Dallas. Now, I only have 2500 gallons, but filtration and turnover rates to match the stocking level with the same set up as I would use for 6000 gallons....for the 5 large Koi (24"+).

I have a Nexus with 3 bags of K1 and 120 liters of air. In addition, gravoty skimmer system to vortex w/ Answer 410 and then pump and Challenger 60 bead for polishing.

Keep in mind, I remember the days back in Oklahoma when I had over 60 Koi in less than 10,000 gallons with crappy filtration and turnover....that's when I constantly had to treat for4 parasites. people tend not to understand the limits of their ponds or their skills and that is what leads to "issues".

Steve

[junglegeorge12]

There is no such things as anonymity in the technology age.

I wouldn't pretreat for parasites that are not yet there. If they are there scope them and treat only for them. Who says parasites and such cannot exist in 'healthy water'?

[Rich L]

Steve, time for culling.

I'll send some fish bags.

[andrewn15]

My pond is about close to 6000 gal, wih 2 separate filters, a) bottom drain to a 150 gal vortex, water then pump to Ultima 2000 (I usethis purely as mechanical) then through 2 50 watts UV in parallel then to a homemade 150 gal moving bed filter filled with K1 and 40L air pump and exist thru 3 waterfalls flow rate s about 3000 gal/hr. b) water is pulled from retro bottom drain and skimmer, pump thru an advance bead filter and feed a homemade trickle/bakki filled with 400 lbs of lava rock mixed with good amount of K1 suspended in 3 trays water is collected at the bottom with 125 gal rubbermaid tank and return to surface of pond via 2 2" pipes, I did not check o2 level but don't think I have any problem there, PH is at 7.8~8.0, 0 amonia 0 nitrite. Each system is back wash and cleaned weekly, the vortex is flushed evry other day, total water exchange about 20% a week. 3 18" 2 9" and 2 12" koi total, all koi were rescued from parasite infested pond and most of them have ulcers (Since I lost all of my koi last year, I want to learn as much about treating parasite and ulcer and bacteria infection as much as possible and did not hesitated accepting these koi to treat them), I did not loose any of them this time and they are all well and healthy. Time for me to give them away and get some koi of my choice. What would be a good stocking rate for my pond?
Andrew

[koiczar]

Rich

Please keep your personal, snide remarks to yourself. If you can't answer a simple question with a simple answer then why answer at all?! There was no hidden agenda behind you like you post, but that's okay, I didn't expect much more coming from you.[quote=Rich L;60007]Mike, my point was that good koi husbandry is simple. Just follow the rules and it will all work out. Hobbyists get into discussions about ‘my bead is better than your microscreen, etc., etc.’ when bottom line, most are effective if installed and operated properly.

What bearing does this have on THIS discussion?

I don’t refer to Grant as a hobbyist or a dealer when discussing his knowledge. He’s far beyond that. In fact I cringe a little every time he’s bundled up with the run of the mill dealer/pond builder. Many of the most experienced hobbyists, who know him, don’t see him as just another resource.

Your're absolutely correct. When it comes to Grant's knowledge, few are above him. I don't consider Grant "just another resource" or we wouldn't have been friends for all these years!!

You would be better off to ask Steve about all the ponds he’s built and designed. He has designed many and is one of the few on line that designs a pond in a systematic process that ends up with synergy. Every component in the system adds value and must be compatible with the system’s needs. He also considers the koi as a part of the system and maintains the stocking in the same way he reliably cleans filters. I was a systems test specialist for the Navy and fully appreciate his approach to synergy in a pond. Hummm! You’d almost think he was an engineer in a passed life.

I'm sure Steve Childress is quite capable of answering my question to my complete satisfaction. In fact, I'm sure there won't be any hidden agenda or personal remarks included either. If I didn't respect his knowledge and expertise, I wouldn't bother to ask him.


I know you’re trying to bring out something that you can use as a way of trying to point your finger at someone else. That’s your style. Like your earlier negative referral to Toyoma Koi. If you can put down others, you think it makes you look good. That doesn’t always work.

Rich

I wasn't the one who posted the lies on the other board!!

I’m beginning to see why your occasionally asked if you’ve been dropped on your head.

Oh, another smart-ass pun - funny though, I wasn't there when I was asked that question!!

[koiczar]

Thanks for the response. I currently have 37 fish in 9,500 gal. Four are under 14", one is about 28" and the rest average between 20-24". It's a mix of males/females of around 50/50 to 60/40. My turnover is once per hour. I use a dragon 1/3hp to an Ultima 20,000 for mechanical and a AquaFlow 1/8hp with mid-level pick up to a vortex which feeds a 155 gal Kormex with 8sheets of Jap mat that gravity feeds the waterfall. As I mentioned before, I've had some very nice growth this year so I am becoming overloaded for this system, IMO. I do plan on culling at my earliest opportunity, but wanted to wait until fall when the water is a little cooler for transport.

Mike

Quote: Originally Posted by schildkoi Stocking rates? I prefer 1 female per 1000 gallons (male per 500). That's what I maintained in Dallas. Now, I only have 2500 gallons, but filtration and turnover rates to match the stocking level with the same set up as I would use for 6000 gallons....for the 5 large Koi (24"+). I have a Nexus with 3 bags of K1 and 120 liters of air. In addition, gravoty skimmer system to vortex w/ Answer 410 and then pump and Challenger 60 bead for polishing. Keep in mind, I remember the days back in Oklahoma when I had over 60 Koi in less than 10,000 gallons with crappy filtration and turnover....that's when I constantly had to treat for4 parasites. people tend not to understand the limits of their ponds or their skills and that is what leads to "issues". Steve

[schildkoi]

Mike,
Based on your description, I'd say you are way overstocked. From what I read, you aspire to keep show quality Koi and wish them to rrach their true potential. Overstocking can hinder that desire along with compoundin parasite issues. JMHO.

Steve