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Old 08-17-2006   #1 (permalink)
Nisai
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Northern California
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Shotgun approach

Hello Folks.
How do you think about treating the main pond with ProformC and prazi yearly right after the winter time when temp start climbing?
Koi are most vunerable during the time change between winter and spring, why not just treat them anyway so that you can get most of the common parasites under control? and while they are healthy and active, they will not suffer any stress relate to the treatment, can we somehow incorporate the treatment as part of spring cleaning and preventive maintenance? it's a small price to pay for as compared to treating the koi when they actually having problem.
I currently qt 2 small baby koi 3-4" for the past few weeks, they show no sign of any problem,very active and eating quite a bit, but I did see gill fluke after the 5th scrape (I scrape them every other day), then goes prazi + ProformC treatment, so far I did not see any trace of the parasite.
From what I've been reading, no pond are free of parasite just how we can keep them under control given good quality water and all.
Any thought?
Andrew
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Old 08-17-2006   #2 (permalink)
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prazi is simply too co$tly. try Fenbendazole, 4fishstuff website has it, $90 + S&H for 300g, enough to treat 150,000 l, about 35,000 gallon.

the reason for ProformC, or QuickCure, + prazi/Fenben is to help dissolve the dang thing.


stan
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Old 08-17-2006   #3 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by saratogatan View Post
prazi is simply too co$tly. try Fenbendazole, 4fishstuff website has it, $90 + S&H for 300g, enough to treat 150,000 l, about 35,000 gallon.

the reason for ProformC, or QuickCure, + prazi/Fenben is to help dissolve the dang thing.


stan
Stan

While you are correct about using ProForm C to help dissolve PraziPond, I think the poster is talking about doing separate treatments of each, one after the other.

I couldn't agree more. I do that very thing in spring and again in fall. I usually do the ProFormC first as that takes care of most everything other than the flukes.
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Old 08-18-2006   #4 (permalink)
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I don't do anything when the weather changes. However, there is a period of time I watch mu koi like a heron. If the koi show sign of stress of problem, I will test the water, and the poison is the last thing to go into the pond.

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Old 08-18-2006   #5 (permalink)
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Instead of "shotgunning"

May I suggest adequate filtration and reasonable stocking rates? There should be no reason what so ever to do "preventative" chemotherapy treatments in a well designed and maintained pond. Often times, chemotherapy treatments can cause more issues than what they attempt to prevent.

Steve
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Old 08-18-2006   #6 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by schildkoi View Post
May I suggest adequate filtration and reasonable stocking rates?
Works for me!
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Old 08-18-2006   #7 (permalink)
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With all of the precaution you take, good water quality, reasonable stocking rate, Qt etc... you still can not avoid other creatures those visit your pond such as frog, bird, racoon to spread the parasite.
Andrew
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Old 08-18-2006   #8 (permalink)
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Excellent point Andrew.

Steve,

That's sort of the idea we all strive for, but few end up achieving. Yes, my stocking rate has climbed this year,mostly due to a serious spurt in growth. Filtration truly is the key to water quality. I have enough. What I get concerned about is the fact that the fish's immune system doesn't know it. Especially in spring, cold nights, warm days. This definitely puts an uncontrolled stress on the fish. What with an increase in parasite and bacterial growth activity, why not give them the added protection by removing some of the bloom before it has a chance to get serious!?
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Old 08-18-2006   #9 (permalink)
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There y’ go Steve, giving simple solutions to complex problems. (“May I suggest adequate filtration and reasonable stocking rates?”) We want learn how to fix the problems and all you want to do is talk about avoiding the problem in the first place.

All the vets, aquaculturists, and internationally respected hobbyists keep saying ‘Don’t treat unless you have a problem and then treat for the problem only.’ How come they keep trying to feed us all that crud? And I’ve read that some of the leading Japanese hobbyists say things like ‘I don’t keep koi, I keep healthy water. The koi do the rest.

What’s all this stuff about ‘healthy water’ anyway?

For many years Grant Fugita has been saying “Flush the Toilet.” What’s he mean by that? Another thing he always squeezes in is “Add lots of air.” What’s he getting at there too?

Grant has a huge vortex sump followed by a sand filter. I don’t know how often he dumps the sump, but he dumps the sand filter AT LEAST twice a day. I tested his pond and filters for oxygen content a few years back. At (or very close) to saturation everywhere except in his pond. There the air injection was so high I could see very small bubbles everywhere and the oxygen meter was indicating 113% saturation which is impossible.

Thom Blischock, a hobbyist on the NI board doing basic research on water in koi ponds, has been posting his results on the NI board for several years now. He recently gave a couple of his findings when asked; ‘...what have you found out that would help the average koi hobbyist develop a healthy environment.’

He Dumps his bead filters once daily and also his bio-filters by draining them once a day. And he keeps his oxygen levels near saturation everywhere, especially in the bio-filters. Gee sounds like flush the toilet and add lots of air.

His research is supporting Grant’s teachings by giving ORP numbers to Grant’s similar results.

Both have unusually healthy ponds and neither believes in treating ponds unless there is a specific problem. By far, we hobbyists kill the vast majority of the koi that die, in America. Through stress. There’s nothing wrong, but I better make certain by treating for something, just in case. I know the ponds overstocked and I will get rid of some of them soon. And how many other ways do we come up with to ‘make certain’ everything is OK. Another pet is to change water and not bother to dechlor if we only change a little. That’s like saying smog doesn’t kill people. Chlorine in small doses attacks gills, etc. That causes stress. (Now that we are using chloramines’ they move passed the gills into the internal organs and cause cells to break down. I think the term was explode. I wonder how the liver and kidneys handle that.

I happen to enjoy technology and have to notice. Grant's basic message is a very simple one that didn't need instruments to develop the right environment. If we just follow the old straight formulas developed by Grant and his peers, we will have HEALTHY WATER. And I guess we can add adequate filtration and reasonable stocking rates. Both are more of the ongoing teachings by Grant & peers. Very straight forward simple habits that so many of us manage to shrug off.

One thing to add! Don’t ever forget, there are still people out there throwing toads!
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Old 08-18-2006   #10 (permalink)
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air should be pumped into the water to help release the trapped gases like methane, nitrogen, and CO2. the best way to do this is to pump air into the water tank after the bio-filter before the water return to the pond. if not avail, then at least pump the air into bio-filter as well as waterfall.

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