Polyueria vs. Fiberglass, which would you use?

[Geishakoi]

Ego???? Who Me????? No...........

[dcny]

Quote: Originally Posted by koiczar Found out that the fiberglass doesn't adhere to the cured concrete. The concrete acted like a form shell to apply the fiberglass into. When it was torn out, the glass simply pulled off in sheets.

Wow, I've never heard that issue before but if that is the case then it would be a serious concern. Woodyaht, if you're around, I'd love to get you take on this. Is this a serious concern or is it just an isolated incident?

-Dan

[aquitori]

The pond before the new one was fiberglass and held up quite nicely, but did pull off in sheets during demo'ing. Depending on how much resin you use to soak the sheets of fiberglass to the gunite or concrete walls it will adhere.

[jnorth]

Quote: Originally Posted by dcny Wow, I've never heard that issue before but if that is the case then it would be a serious concern. Woodyaht, if you're around, I'd love to get you take on this. Is this a serious concern or is it just an isolated incident? -Dan

It is a serious concern. Many multi part products such as concrete, fiberglass, paint, epoxy etc need to be mixed based on temperature, humidity etc. Hotter weather can cause quicker curing times which can then lead to adhesion or cracking problems. Many manufacturers have data sheets with detailed directions for mixing their products for best use.

[MikeM]

I have been happy with polyurea. Any finish is going to have application issues. The key is in the preparation.

I'm not sure about the comment that fibreglas is smoother than polyurea. It may be, but not noticeably to me. When my pond was first built the algae that formed could not get a hold on the polyurea surface because it was so smooth. It could be rubbed off with a finger. Carpet algae is beginning to take hold now. Small tufts of it come off from time to time as the fish graze... not strands, but whole pieces about the size of a quarter, leaving a few "polka dots" on the walls. Algae covers these quickly, so it is not unsightly. When I had an unintended spawning a few months ago, the fish were bumping and sliding against the pond walls. There were no injuries, scrapes or bruises. Altogether, "smooth enough".

From all I've read and heard, I think either surface is best applied by a professional with real experience... but I've long since learned that I'm not much of a DIY'er.

[schildkoi]

Both fiberglass and polyurea are great COATINGS to a structural shell. The benefits of Poly are that it cures fast and can be in use in a short period of time. The benefit of Fibnerglass is its a smooth shell.

I get a little flustered everytime I hear statements like this one from Jeff Dunkle:

Quote: Polyurea can be applied straight on to geotextile as a membrane, which would eliminate the cost of gunite, rebar, and labor to put on coating.

That is still the single biggest drawback of Polyurea, the lack or either knowledge of structures by some applicators, or the intentional disregard for such. Polyurea is a coating, not a structurally secure system in and of itself.

Steve

[MikeM]

Yes, used in that fashion I think polyurea becomes more like a liner... a whole lot better than a plain EPDM liner, but lacking the stability of a concrete structure.

[Geishakoi]

Steve,
There is no reason for you to get flustered . No where in this thread did I indicate that geo & polyurea is in any way a structural membrane of any kind. Don't know where you got that from. I will be the first to inform any of my potential customers that depending on the depth and soil that it may not be the way to go for them.

Have another beer on me pal !!

Jeff

[Rich L]

Hi Steve,

Send me your address. Jeff agrees he owes you a beer. I’ll jump in with a donation too; a lot of us owe you for your contribution.

Jeff & I have been talking about using me somewhere in his business. He’s so busy he can’t handle it all and, as you can see, he is resorting to scraping the bottom, of the barrel of help. I hope I can contribute because I have a great respect for both his integrity and his vision. If you have the chance to spend a couple of hours talking to him about his own goals you would get a new prospective on the word vision.

When I saw his statement relating to Polyurea and structures I knew he was leaving a lot to interpretation. When he believes an installation needs structure they are consistently looked on as strong, durable structures for someone working out here in earthquake country. These are opinions of other professional pond builders as well my own observations, but that leads me to wonder what a structural guy would say. Some time when you’re in the San Francisco Bay Area, let us know. We’ll drag you around looking at ponds so you won’t have to bore yourself with site seeing.

Just to brag a little, my son is a civil and has extensive experience in structural and soil hydraulics. He just took the position of City Engineer of Sonoma California. He also helps to raise your banner in me about my own knowledge of pond structures.

I think you know I share your frustration with the hobbies installation standards, mine’s in hydraulics. I don’t know how to make headway but, for now, waving that flag is going to have to do until you get an occasional audience to notice and ask you what to do about making headway in your arena.

Too bad there’s no one around that can publish an article or two to help raise the hobbies awareness, but what’s a guy to do. Actually, if an article like that did show up, nobody could read it due to the misspellings.

Now I guess I’ll have to send enough for two beers.

[woodyaht]

Well I was going to stay out of this, but I guess I'll toss in my 2cents.
The first fiberglass job I did was around 19yrs ago, I worked at a boat yard for 2 yrs after high school where all I pretty much did was repair and fabricate using glass. Since 1991 I have been self employed working on lg. boats and fiberglass fabrication has been a large part of my income.

Production fiberglass boats started being mainstream in the mid 60's, and a large majority of those boats are still in use today, and are in excelent shape. I have never seen a boat get culled because of product failure. I have seen numerous boats that when built, the manufacture tried using a new resin, like fire retardent resins which back in the mid 70's was a great idea, but there wasn't enough knowledge back then and today the boats have blisters on the decks which are superficial. It is also common for boats to blister under the water line, there are many therory's behind what happens with those, and I'd be here for a week typing if I tried to put it all down. But the bottom line is they are all superficial as well, 99.9% of them don't hurt the intergrity of the boat.

Properly layed fiberglass can get stress cracks, but the cracks are normally superficial (in the gelcoat), and not structural. Pound for pound, fiberglass is stronger than aluminum when done properly.

Boats and surfboards do get damaged, but that all comes down to operator error or mother nature. Never seen a boat crack in half and sink to the bottom sitting in it's berth in calm weather. Boats only get damaged when a dock, shore, other boat, neglegence, etc. gets in the way. A surfboard isn't a real good comparison as a surfboard has normally one layer of fiberglass on it which is in the area of 1/32-1/16" thick. A majority of surfboards are just fiberglassed, and don't have gelcoat or anything which can protect the polyester resin from UV rays from the sun. UV does degrade cured polyester resin fast. Most old surfboards are yellow, and that's from the sunlight degrading the resin.

Why am I using boats as a comparison? If you think about it a pond is nothing different than a reverse boat. Boats hold water outside and have numerous holes in the bottom for thru-hulls, shafts, and rudders, electronics, etc and those all have to keep water out. A pond is basically the same except we are trying to keep the water in. The majority of boats built are using aluminum, steel, fiberglass, or concrete.

There are different catalyst not available to the general public which can and do change the drying times hotter weather. Shrinkage can occure if fiberglass is cured to quick, as well as poor adhesion for not being able to have enough time to bite into the substrate.

People think that when they DIY fiberglass that one layer is going to be the end all cure all, not so. Think of fiberglass just as you would plywood. One layer of (1/16-1/8") wood is very flimsey and has little strength. take 4 pieces of 1/64" wood and laminate them together and it's very strong.
Fiberglass is no different. There are many layers to building a stucture with it, different kinds of fabric, for different applications as well as differnt resin for different applications.
To coat a pond in glass doesn't require numerous structural layers, but you still need some mass.
To build a pond using glass as the structure not having any real structure behind the glass, like concrete and having the knowledge of the proper fabrics as I did when I built my pond creates one hell of a pond IMHO.
I welcome anybody to drop by and see how simple a pond can be built with a lifespan and the ability to make changes to the pond that rivels no other.
Just as on a boat you want to drill a hole, drill it. Fiberglass can be repaired very easily. When I have some free time, I am going to raise the water level in my pond which means raising the skimmer and repairing the old hole under the skimmer, what other product can you do this with? None that I am aware of. And at the same time having vertical walls and lowering the water level to about half full, most others would be worried about the dirt caving in, not here. When my fish spawned last summer and I could see it coming I lowered the water down so they wouldn't injure themselves on the coping of the pond if they jumped. Last summer I added mid-level pick ups to my pond as well, dug down, drilled the holes and added them, back filled, what other product can you do that with, without comprimising the integrity of the shell.

One person I know has a fiberglass pond and wants to make it deeper, very simple to do. Cut the bottom out dig deeper, re-glass the bottom and your done. can't do that with anything else on the market, in a timely and cost effective manner. You can add water as soon as a few hours after the final; coat of gelcoat, when properly applied.

This is all based on hand layed fiberglass as well. Using a chopper gun to apply the product is where most product failures come into play. Chopper guns add lots of resin and fiberglass all at once, and the strength goes way down when the resin percentage goes up and is not monitored. Most things made from fiberglass on the market are made using chopper guns, and they have their place. But if longevity and strength is involved, hand layed is the only way to go. Many boat manufactures found that out in the 80's and the upper end boats are hand layed today. Pool failure as Jeff mentioned is probably due to using cheap inferior products, and having the chlorine degrade the materials involved. You have to use the correct product for each application.

What fiberglass will stick to has tons of variables. It sticks to raw gunite very well, a plastered swimming pool not so well. Pool repair (fiberglass) companies will only give up to a 5yr warranty over plaster. Some will go 15yrs over raw gunite. The glass in my pond stuck incredible to cement board. Alot of it has to do with knowing the proper steps involved, throwing some glass down and dumping some resin on it is not a good idea.

Bottom line in my opinion, if fiberglass is done properly, as long as the fiberglass shell stays intact and the areas where you have perforations in the glass, i.e. bottom drains, tpr's, skimmers, etc. stay intact . It does not matter if the substrate fails. It's a shell just like a liner, or polyurea.

When I get some free time I am going to build a beach entry, pebble finish, pool myself using similar methods I used to build my pond.


I am by no means trying to sell the product here, just trying to give everyone food for thought.

Hey Jeff how bout I build a boat out of glass, and you build one out of polyuea and lets take them out in the ocean in 40' seas? Just playing with ya, LOL.