Possible ban on koi and goldfish?

[bekko]

Carp are not the only thing subjected to special import regulations. Many commodities are deemed potential risks to livestock, wildlife or public health and receive extra scrutiny. Every species has it's diseases and there is literally no end to the possibilities for new regulation in this arena. However, there are limits to how much the govment can intervene based on agency budgets and the publics willingness to accept regulations. Therefore, decisions about which commodities receive the extra scrutiny and which do not is somewhat subjective. No, take that back... it's VERY subjective.

As we see in the SVC regulations, this extra scrutiny costs money. Regardless of the justification and intent, import regulations are a de facto form of tariff. Do local industries appreciate and benefit from de facto tariffs? Damned right they do. It is impossible to tease apart motivations and we never know how much of an action is driven by the need to protect industry and wildlife from a devastating disease, and how much is driven by broader economic considerations.

Being the good public servants that they are, the action of regulatory agencies is driven, in large part, by input from industry and the general public. And what is the vehicle for this industry/public input? Individuals writing letters and lobbyist. There is the letter from Joe Blow which is appropriately filed. Then there is the visit from Joe Cool ,the lobbyist, who claims to represent a group of many hundreds/thousands of citizens. When Joe Cool says that the group he represents, and many others like them, believe SVC poses a severe threat to industry and wildlife, the agency listens. Here is an opportunity for the agency to do the right thing and make a big bunch of people happy at the same time. On the priority list, this disease issue leap-frogs ahead of many similar issues which do not have Joe Cool to champion their cause.

Joe Cool is a skilled professional so his services do not come cheap. Which group can afford to hire Joe Cool to champion the battle against some silly fish disease? The Florida fish farmers are the only ones I know of. They used to have a lobbyist but I do not know if they still do. Then there is the National Aquaculture Association. The NAA director would have been remiss in her duties if she did not continue to raise this issue with the people at APHIS.

With respect to the SVC regulations, does Joe Cool exist? How much of this action is driven by concerned scientists, and how much is driven by the economic interests of industry. Personally, I applaud the regulations on both fronts. I am glad there is an effort to control the disease, and I am glad that US industries are being protected and enhanced. Everyone in aquaculture circles will likely feel the same, but many of you will have the opposing view.

Kiefer and Luke, where are you? Did the Florida fish farmers play an extra-special role in all of this?

-stev ehop

[PapaBear]

Dizzyfish,
I think you missed the point of my question altogether. Whether SVC is really that big a problem or not is irrelevant. What IS relevant is whether the added cost of shipping crummy fish is worth it. Paying a small price for a lousy fish is one thing. Paying a larger price for the same piece of crapagoi is another. What I'm wondering about is if the quality we now get from mainstream Japanese breeders will improve somewhat. They bulk-sell a lot of inexpensive tateshita through brokers. It is part of the market. If the higher cost of low quality fish is more than the market will bear, will they respond by sending us better Koi? That is supply and demand at work in the free market.

Quote: Originally Posted by dizzyfish I don't see how it would since APHIS doesn't think SVC has been much of a problem to date: "There are currently no reported cases of the disease, spring viremia of carp, in the United States, and the new restrictions are aimed primarily at fish imported from Asia, including top koi exporter Japan. Since 2002, three U.S. cases of the deadly disease have been linked to fish imported from Asian suppliers, officials said." I think the big transhippers/wholesalers will simply pass on the additional costs to their customers, who will pass them on to the consumers. If you stop something that wasn't much of a problem to begin with, how does that improve the quality? If anything it might make people think quarantine is no longer necessary.

Russell,
I think your answer is more on point. I will be more than happy to see low rent breeders of diseased fish fall out of the marketplace. They can either get their collective acts together or peddle their junk elsewhere.

[jnorth]

Quote: Originally Posted by bekko With respect to the SVC regulations, does Joe Cool exist? How much of this action is driven by concerned scientists, and how much is driven by the economic interests of industry. Personally, I applaud the regulations on both fronts. I am glad there is an effort to control the disease, and I am glad that US industries are being protected and enhanced. Everyone in aquaculture circles will likely feel the same, but many of you will have the opposing view.

I think most of us are glad they are trying to control the disease. I also believe that it is total BS to put out a new reg that comes into effect a month after it was announced which just happens to be the beginning of the fall harvest season. So that is why I have what looks like an opposing opinion. I don't oppose the reg. I just oppose the speed and timing with which they are applying it.

[dizzyfish]

[quote=PapaBear;61655]Dizzyfish,
I think you missed the point of my question altogether. Whether SVC is really that big a problem or not is irrelevant. What IS relevant is whether the added cost of shipping crummy fish is worth it. Paying a small price for a lousy fish is one thing. Paying a larger price for the same piece of crapagoi is another. What I'm wondering about is if the quality we now get from mainstream Japanese breeders will improve somewhat. They bulk-sell a lot of inexpensive tateshita through brokers. It is part of the market. /quote]

Larry there won't necessarily be any added cost for the crummy fish. They can ride in with the fees that are paid to bring in the higher quality stuff. Here is the quote from the PPN article. "The agency said that new fees for permits and inspections would run from $378 to $504 per shipment." I think most high end dealers still rely on sales of cheaper fish to help pay the rent, so I don't look for these fish to disappear from the market. If they did it would probably drive the cost of the high end stuff even higher to make for the loss of revenue. It all depends on what the market will bear.

PS
Here is a quote from the October issue of Pet Product News. I do not believe this is yet available on line.
"Taro Kodama, president of Kodama Koi Farm, with operations in Japan, California and Hawaii, said the regulations were expected and that "generally, it will be very hard on the industry, but I understand the importance of this regulation." He said he would cut expenses to avoid passing on the permit fees to his customers"

Anyone not familar with the big expansion Kodama Koi Farm has made in Hawaii is out of the loop. Check it out on www.kodamakoifarm.com they are having an open house in October. Check that, I think it was in their Living Jewels newsletter.

Quote from Living Jewels
" In order to deliver carefully selected, high-quality and safe Niigata
originated Nishikigoi to worldwide Koi lovers and dealers, Kodama Koi Farm
built the world's largest Koi farm in Hawaii. To commemorate its
completion, we are going to hold an opening ceremony and "Japan Nishikigoi
Expo in Hawaii" for 3 days from October 24 to 26, 2006."

Do you think any crummy koi will go through their Hawaii facility?
Mitch

[junglegeorge12]

Quote: Originally Posted by jnorth I think most of us are glad they are trying to control the disease. I also believe that it is total BS to put out a new reg that comes into effect a month after it was announced which just happens to be the beginning of the fall harvest season. So that is why I have what looks like an opposing opinion. I don't oppose the reg. I just oppose the speed and timing with which they are applying it.

I can understand your view jnorth, however the fall harvest may be the very reason they need to get it activated. A large portion of this year's imports will come right then. The history shows a repeated pattern of that harvest and US breedery interests getting hammered in more ways than one. If you graph it on a chart the impact is undeniable and obvious. I don't know about any Joe Cool's, but I do know that these guys are on top of such issues as it is their job, and they know if they don't act the garbage coming from the dominant breeders in Japan will infect the US even more, and perhaps prevent us from ever being able to protect ourselves. At which point employing them becomes pointless.

I think it is imperative, once the reg is announced, for it to be enforced, or all hell will probably break loose biologically in the US, to make completely void the point of regs at all. It is quite obvious that these diseases have been used to keep US breederies supressed, opressed, and broke. You could reword that evil mafia like opression and ocnsequences, and call other's low rent, but that's not really accurate. Low rent implies low character, and in this case, those most able to pay rents are the ones more likely to be practicing low character. It works in their interest.

Noone wants to bring up the issue that they protect themselves by not allowing imports at all from the US for decades now. My guess is that if they do nothing, in less than 5 yrs, every breedery in the US and Malaysia will be tagged, tarred, and feathered not only as having inferior products (which is an old school tactic and lie and not tru anymore due to gene pools already having been obtained), but as SVC and KHV risks more so than those who sent them the koi that gave it to them! It amazes me how folks do not want to acknowledge where these diseases are copming from. Right now the khv and historical svc outbreaks are coming from Japan, not malaysia, africa, or china. They are in the food carp industry badly there, which are right next door to many of our famed breeders of 'high quality koi'. So in all fairness, although I do get your point jnorth, there is another injustice and unfairness ocurring of a far more epic proportion than how a few importers may be impacted. They are not only taking out competition from folks outside their little ring of elitist relationships in the US, but worldwide and even right in Japan. It goes back the battle within Japan for control by the old family dynasty ways stemming from the days of heirarchy. For them to move forward that structure has to be dealt with so a free market can exist. Otherwise we will be guilty as a nation of supporting dictatorships and mafias. And I don't think that is going to happen.

My guess is if they don't deal with it, there is going to be some major political fallout with economic consequences involving not just US breeders, but from other asian and countries worldwide as well. We can't give one elite group a loophole and aid them thru it, while trampling and ignoring others, pushing them aside. That will have major consequences politically. You saw stan's response to related concerns.

The US needs good relations with China, Malaysia, Korea, Africa, Phillipines, Israel etc. I shudder to think of the international consequences if our carp import policies are not applied across the board evenly, with even amounts of preparation time, which in this case would have to be none. If we work with Japan, and do not provide others the same exact type and amount of aid, we r in serious political trouble. So the best solution, is to enforce the regs and give no preferential treatment or info.

Importers of Japanese koi are not the least bit concerned with the US international position and relationships, or justice, and are not thinking globally. It serves their best interest if every US, Malaysian, and non Japanese breeder is infected and publicly defamed, and disallowed to import. They r thinking in one area of concern only. Very dangerous way to form policy.

Russ you muas tnot have read the whole document, the money figures are right on it as they were in the article. If your numbers r different then the estimates in the reg are wrong or yours are. Not sure if their goal was to give exact figures.

[Russell Peters]

Hi Jungle George,
I am basing my fees on what I have been asked to pay, which is less than $200 per shipment. Maybe it is strutured differently for larger brokers, I don't know.

Russ

[jnorth]

Quote: Originally Posted by junglegeorge12 I can understand your view jnorth, however the fall harvest may be the very reason they need to get it activated. A large portion of this year's imports will come right then. The history shows a repeated pattern of that harvest and US breedery interests getting hammered in more ways than one. If you graph it on a chart the impact is undeniable and obvious. I don't know about any Joe Cool's, but I do know that these guys are on top of such issues as it is their job, and they know if they don't act the garbage coming from the dominant breeders in Japan will infect the US even more, and perhaps prevent us from ever being able to protect ourselves. At which point employing them becomes pointless. .

You aren't getting my point. If the fall harvest is what they are worried about then they should have come out with the reg at the beginning of summer and not right before the harvest.

[junglegeorge12]

Quote: Originally Posted by jnorth You aren't getting my point. If the fall harvest is what they are worried about then they should have come out with the reg at the beginning of summer and not right before the harvest.

Oh I got your point, the thing is their point and concerns and yours as a hobbyist are slightly different.

[koiczar]

OOOOHHHH!!! VOODOO AND WITCHUNTS ARE BACK! IS THIS SALEM OR NEW ORLEANS??

Man, this topic is way out of hand. YES, it's serious, but if you listen to the folks who have there finger on the pulse of what's going on, instead of speculators and nay-sayers, you'll see it's not that big a problem to overcome. So far, there's ONE PERSON who has provided factual information concerning this whole matter, and the rest is nothing but HOT AIR!!!!

I agree, these regs seem timed at the fall harvest. I also see that some of the Asian country markets are definitely gonna be hurt by this. Well, ask yourself, have they had the same opportunity to perform the proper protocol testing that Japan has done? - YES!! Have they bothered? - not from what I can see!! SO, why do you feel sorry for them. They had their chance and decided to gamble - well 2,3 and 12 are craps - AND YOU LOSE!!! It's that simple.

Now, according to what I've been told, the U S has more faith in Japan than anyone else due to the fact that they have been performing SVC protocol testing for approx. 8 years. So, why wouldn't/shouldn't we trust them.

JGeorge

Seeing as how Japan has the highest level of exposure in our little hobby world, wouldn't it only be natural for any negative information/press to be brought out about them? After all, negative press is what sells papers!! Just look at the publicity and BS it has stirred up on this forum board alone!! And then there are those that simply fan the flames with bullshit supposition and creative licensing to assume they know which breeders have KHV or SVC - Just look back to last year - there were flaming arrows being thrown at the likes of some very famous breeders in the Hiroshima area - were they unfounded - YES!! Did people believe the rumors - YOU BETCHA - It's our nature. Don't ask me why, but it is!!

Now, do you really believe that the Japanese breeders would go so far as to try to sabotage the U S breeders to keep the competition scales in their favor - boy, you got a lot to learn - we're so far behind them it's rediculous - IMHO, we'll NEVER catch up to them. Now keeping all this in mind, if they could no longer support their farms by selling tateshita abroad, do you really think they could survive just to produce the highest quality few that sell to their local customers - think again!!

Also, keep in mind, most of the dealers here on the West Coast don't deal with distributors from Japan marketing crapagoi. They go to Japan and hand select their stock in the fall. Granted, some will not go in the Spring for tosai, but still order directly from the breeders. So, if you're buying from a dealer in the U S that buys from a distributor, maybe you should look to a known quality dealer that buys directly from the breeders. Don't cry about "crapagoi" and the price going up. If the dealer buys direct and does the right thing this year and beyond, prices won't be increased just to cover the tariff of this requirement! If your dealer tells you that, think of buying elsewhere!!

Mike

[dizzyfish]

Well I went to www.regulations.gov to make a comment and found the instructions from the first post to this thread didn't work very well. A few have managed to get through though: http://www.regulations.gov/fdmspublic/component/main
Perhaps our man Joe Cool is among them.
Mitch

PS
To get to the right spot you need to type in APHIS-2006-0107 in the search box at the bottom and then click on the blue APHIS-2006-0107 under Docket ID.