Norm Meck on Green Water . . .

[bekko]

Great info Mike. Thanks Don for turning us on Norm's article. Every little tid-bit of information helps and the more kitchen experiments done the better.

However, its an ecosystem down there and it is much too complex for our tiny human brains to ever fully comprehend. We don't even know who all the players are, much less how they interact with each other. In addition, chaos (http://www.imho.com/grae/chaos/chaos.html) has a huge impact on how ecosystems develop and change over time.

Stick some flowers in a vase and add water. By the time the chlorine dissipates, your vase will have an aquatic ecosystem which is already too complicated to understand, and getting more complicated by the hour.

I enjoyed Norm's article and learned from it - but agree with Mike that his approach is much too simplistic.

One of his hunches was about why algae blooms tend to develop in the spring and he suggested that nitrifiers and algae come out of hibernation at a lower temperature than heterotrophs. My ambient temperature seldom drops below 70F and seldom rises above 78F. But, algae blooms still tend to occur in the spring. Go figure.

-snik pohe vets

[Russell Peters]

Quote: Originally Posted by bekko Great info Mike. Thanks Don for turning us on Norm's article. Every little tid-bit of information helps and the more kitchen experiments done the better. However, its an ecosystem down there and it is much too complex for our tiny human brains to ever fully comprehend. We don't even know who all the players are, much less how they interact with each other. In addition, chaos (http://www.imho.com/grae/chaos/chaos.html) has a huge impact on how ecosystems develop and change over time. Stick some flowers in a vase and add water. By the time the chlorine dissipates, your vase will have an aquatic ecosystem which is already too complicated to understand, and getting more complicated by the hour. I enjoyed Norm's article and learned from it - but agree with Mike that his approach is much too simplistic. One of his hunches was about why algae blooms tend to develop in the spring and he suggested that nitrifiers and algae come out of hibernation at a lower temperature than heterotrophs. My ambient temperature seldom drops below 70F and seldom rises above 78F. But, algae blooms still tend to occur in the spring. Go figure. -snik pohe vets

Hey Steve,
Isn't spring mating season for algae?LOL

[KoiCop]

thanks for sharing your insights.

I have to agree that the problems of green water and string algae blooms are too complex to allow for a single, unified theory governing their control -- but, oh, wouldn't that be grand?

[Brutuscz]

Quote: Originally Posted by KoiCop thanks for sharing your insights. I have to agree that the problems of green water and string algae blooms are too complex to allow for a single, unified theory governing their control -- but, oh, wouldn't that be grand?

Ahhh...the grand unification theory!!! Even Einstein couldn't solve it.

[johnsmith]

Sorry boys but it is THAT simple- competitive exclusion. Plain and simple.

You can discuss this in terms of lowering the nutrient source or in terms of what happens when you create ideal situations for two ESTABLISHED species that need to compete and then dicuss the idea of open species warfare technique as possible ( IE corals and certain filamentous algaes)- but in our ponds it is and has always been about competitive exclusion.

JR

[MikeM]

LOL. Yes, but who is excluding what and when? ....The real devil is in the "how".

[johnsmith]

Right but before such exotic techniques as 'chemical warfare' there is simple competition for nutrient source and environmental advantage. A koi pond can vary greatly in water chemistry, gas composition and organic content. But certain tighter bands of parameters favor a mix of autotrophic, heterotrophic and agal species. It is then only seasonal change that gives advantage/disadvantage. Meanwhile all the algae species we consider undesirable, remain just so much white background noise.
The 'good bacteria' simple operate better in what we usually identify as 'good koi environments'. NO bacterial poisons in the way of chemical warfare needed! LOls
In the case of actual warfare by algaes and corals- the environment favors both species and both species are established. Most toxins are created to combat 'encrouchment' -not existance.
Spring ponds are environments out of balance- the bacteria loose ground due to temperature or algae gains ground due to nutrient mix, low oxygen/hot water ( especially in over fed ponds in hot summer weather or inadeguate bacterial populations due to poor O2 saturation levels.
JR

[MikeM]

Once again, JR has added a great deal to the discussion. The environmental factors are basic to everything else. Those factors can be simplified as "too much nitrate and too much sun" leads to green water. But that's an over-simplification of all the factors at work to create an environment for whichever lifeforms are competing with one another for resources. Meck takes us into the realm of how this competition occurs and how each lifeform alters the environment. We also have to consider the difference between the relatively closed environment of a pond and the open environment of a stream or sea. On a coral reef the chemical toxins that protect against encroachment on an anchorage site are dispersed in open water. The concentration can never be very high a distance away. In a closed environment, the build-up of toxins is going to relate more to the rate of decomposition of the toxin rather than dilution. One of the menaces in Florida lakes is Hydrilla, an exotic aquatic "stem" plant similar in appearance to the common Elodea/Anacharis of the aquarium trade. When Hydrilla has been added to small landlocked lakes containing native myriophyllum species, in short order the myriophyllum weakens and ceases to grow despite high levels of available nutrients. In time the hydrilla overwhelms the lake and the native species are exterminated. Hydrilla emits several toxins. It is believed one or more of these, or several in combination, wipe-out the myriophyllum, creating room for the hydrilla to grow. The same effect has not been observed in moving waters. Dilution is thought to be part of the explanation for the difference.

I'll go looking again for the cache of articles I have squirreled away. I'm not suggesting that allelopathy is "the answer", just that it is more of a factor in a closed pond, especially one with luxuriant algae growth, than is recognized.

[johnsmith]

As toxins build up???? We are taking about koi ponds right?

Really there seems to be a disconnect here-- let me try again---

In an aging body of water, the microbial community shifts from one group of dominators to another. In a badly kept water garden this is a shift from mineralization -- nitrification To nitrification --- denitrification. Again, no poison needed. eventually even green water will give way to other , more effective anaerobic species.
Maintenance in a koi pond keeps an environment 'forever young' in terms of a otherwise natural progression. The idea that bacteria is 'poisoning the enemy' is way to 'looking for the complicated and the exotic' when the obvious will do!

The obvious explaination of excess organic is that the gas content is changing. This favors species that thrive on eutrophication systems and environments. In other words, as the environment changes it favors some species over others.
looking at this in reverse, I can change an environment and make green water go away. Am I telling the bacteria to stop that poisoning and leave that algae alone? NO, I'm bringing the balance back to the system by favoring bacteria over unicellular algae- This is exactly what happens in all cases of new pond syndrome.
JR

[PapaBear]

And I'm talking about the thread discussion at least as much as the article . Whan we talk about water conditions we are always speaking in terms of "water chemistry". Every last micro-organism is part of the mix and it truly is a complex little mini-ecosystem we each have in our backyard ponds.
One of the lessons I learned many years ago (back when I worked in Natural Gas Processing) is that minor changes in chemestry can change everything. The very first processing plant I ever worked at was very old. It had operated in Duncan, Oklahoma for 25 years before being moved to Wyoming where I first ran it. It's original operating specs were virtually useless because the specific molecular content of the gas being processed was not the same, and every part of the process had to be altered in order to make the plant function properly. I've seen that same scenario repeated over and over again at other facilities as well.
The same is true for our ponds. If I set up an exact duplicate of my pond in your backyard the clear water I enjoy might not be quite so good because of differences in raw water mineralization, atmospheric conditions, fish bioload, different feed, etc... The chem warfare in our ponds is pretty interesting science.