Diamond in the rough?

[Richard Rombold]

Hello, first post on this forum. I've followed some of the discussions here and have been impressed with the level of sophistication in the discussion. Here is a classic dilemma me. I passed on this tosai earlier in the year and brought it to the tanks for auction. It had a slightly awkward balance to it but I strongly hesitated since with age some of this awkwardness would be corrected. Especially as the very deep sumi begins to emerge next year. I would have enjoyed growing this fish out for several more years, but pond space is tight. Quality Sanke take time to mature and an experienced eye to spot. Any guesses as to what this 8" tosai sold for?

[koiczar]

Richard

First off - Welcome to the board!!

Are you the Richard that is a breeder that Sangreaal talks about? If so, cograts, the pics I've seen so far on this board are of some very nice domestically bred fish. Kudos to you!!

As far as what I can see in this picture, the shiroji is very clean and bright. The first step hi is very even and homogenous. The second step sashi concerns me though. On the left side of the dorsal fin there is a bit of messiness to it. It obviously has nice maruzome kiwa that will improve with age. The akane sumi on the shoulder looks like baby sumi that will give way in the next few months. The tsubo sumi that is coming later is what I can't wait to see. It shouldn't be long though, as from what I can see in the pic this fish is a male.

I have no clue what someone paid for this fish as I have no idea what auction you're referring to. Was this your auction or one in Japan from a famous breeder? I don't think this size tosai would be put out at auction in Japan! How am I doing so far?

Mike

[Richard Rombold]

Mike,

Thank you and yes Marie has been quite generous in sharing some of my fish on this board. Your discussion of this fish is excellent and is the reason I am posting here. I live in a bubble so to speak and have self taught myself all that I know about koi. The problem for me is that the farm is all consuming and leaves little time to connect with individuals who's opinion would be useful in furthering my own development as a Breeder.

It is exactly the second step that gave me pause on this fish. It barely balances the very powerful pattern on the shoulder at this early age and will be inadequate as the fish grows. However, the thing with young quality Sanke is that you are dealing with a wild card and there are hints that this fish may get some help from the deep sumi emerging. It pulled at my heart but I let it go. So the answer to your other question is that this is my fish and not that of a Japanese Breeder. It's the direction that I'm taking my Sanke and I'll have to take my lumps for it because it won't be appreciated here in the US. It's not dramatic enough at an early age to catch the imagination of the average hobbyist.

Any guesses on the price it sold for?

[dick benbow]

welcome to the board and thanks for posting....from my experience Sanke is the hardest to breed. I could never get the last beni tail stop to be where it needed to be (LOL) but then if it was so easy, everyone would be doing it.

Maurice in the UK (UK KOI) is getting ready to have his open house next week or so....He has done remarkable work for being such a new guy on the block and I hope we can get him to post a few pics of how he is doing.

good luck and keep up the good work

[Sangreaal]

Welcome Richard! *great big girlie hug* I'm so happy you've emerged here on Koi-Bito! (Yes, Mike, this is the breeder I've been lauding all over the board for months *LOL*)

Richard, I know what it should have brought, and it just catches in my throat to even utter what you gave it away for. *mumbles and coughs out something about ninety nine cents*

I had that sanke on my watch list (along with a couple of others I have already bid on and been outbid). What gave me the fatal pause was the imbalance between the first and second step--it's hard to choose from even the best pics and for me, I would have liked to have seen a little more sumi under the skin, because when it comes to sanke or showa, I like a lot of inky sumi, and though what is there is nicely placed, it just didn't look like enough for my taste. As usual, the conformation was perfection, so the only thing left to waffle on was pattern alone. I just waffled for too long!

I think the biggest problem with buying from pics is that most people want to see a finished koi staring back at them instead of an Olympic Hopeful. It's the uneducated eye thing. If it isn't perfect to the eye (even at young tosai stage), it won't create a bidding war. But all of us on the board know what happens to early bloomers--and the person that bought that sanke got one heck of a deal on a koi with a future.

Again, so happy to see you here and WELCOME TO THE BOARD!

Marie

[PapaBear]

You self teach pretty well IMHO . Yes, Marie has been doing a great job of tooting your horn for a few months, but she's been on key so we don't mind . I understand your dilemma on this one. Where's that darn crystal ball when you really need it
Glad to have you on board. It's good to see a domestic breeder doing justice to the craft But in FRESNO!?! (I grew up in Strathmore about 90 min south of you )

[Richard Rombold]

Thank you Marie, Papa Bear and Dick, I've hesitated in the past on posting here because it seemed like it could easily be misconstrued as self-promotion. However, If I don't post I won't learn and I need to learn. So please don't be offended if I post a picture or two and ask for your opinions, and I won't be offended if you don't sing it's praise.

What I have done in Fresno is learn how to rear koi and recognize quality. What I need to learn now is how to develop that quality, show the fish and also learn the issues hobbyists face in keeping koi in small ponds. I have about 300 nisai koi in the ponds currently still growing that I did not pass on and some of them are quite good. My growing season is much longer and they will continue doing so on into November and even early December. These are the fish that I am most interested in receiving feed back on, but this one fish I thought highlighted the plight of the domestic breeder. Yes Marie, it sold for 99 cents because it was a domestic koi. If I had posted the same pictures of the same fish, saying they came from a well known Japanese Breeder, the price would have been in the hundreds. It's important to recognize the bias. Japanese breeders deserve higher prices! They have established a reputation and in most respects customers can feel more confident in how the fish will develop since they are more familiar with the bloodlines. It's reasonable. Just keep in the back of your minds though that maybe times are changing just a little.

[johnsmith]

I think what you like about this fish is what I like about this fish- it has excellent shiro ground and strong color.
I also think what you don't like about this fish, I also don't like either! The balance of the pattern is poor. I suspect, from your comments, that you feel the sumi will rise and balance out the stark pattern. This is true but only in terms of 'filling the white canvas'. The fish will still be 'wrong' in terms of hi plate balance. The rear is just too weak- a very common problem in 2nd cull kohaku and sanke.
There is one more problem with this fish- the beni shows no 'second coat' as a concentration of darker hi in the plate. That is that pine cone effect of really good hi. It does show deeper hi in the skin surrounding the red scales- which is good- just not great as in the aforementioned case. So what you are left with is a fish who's hi will begin to decline as the sumi comes on- the fate, unfortunately, of most young koi- including nice quality one's like this one.

JR

[MikeM]

It was certainly a good buy for someone, but if you do not have space and resources to raise it properly another season, then that's how it goes. I think you made the right decision. You just need to find a better outlet for the "almost" discards.

[KoiCop]

Welcome to KB.

To follow up on JR's last point, you might search this board for hoshi as that's the proper Japanese term.