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Old 10-13-2006   #21 (permalink)
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Here is link that lists all the birds protected by the Migratory Bird Act

http://www.fws.gov/migratorybirds/in...a/mbtandx.html

As you can see Heron is on that list and it covers the whole US.

Now let me be clear. I don't care if you kill them and stuff them or eat them for dinner or chop them up with your lawnmower. I also don't care if think they should be allowed to eat all the koi out of all the ponds everywhere. My point is this: If you are going to recommend to someone that they kill a heron to solve their heron problem then you should also let them know what may happen if they get caught.

In closing: I have no love whatsoever for herons but I can't in good conscience recommend that someone else kill one without telling them they are protected by law in the US. I'd hate to tell someone to go kill a heron and they get caught and fined $15,000.
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Old 10-13-2006   #22 (permalink)
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Does anyone know if heron can attack without landing? Can herons take koi from ponds to deep for them to walk in very easily? I see the above says they stike with their bills. I saw a large heron on the rock edge of my pond once, but it didn't take any fish and hasn't been back. So does making ponds that drop off sharply offer some protection to the koi?
Mitch
Having had a heron dining at my pond the last two days I can tell you they don't need to get into the water. This particular pond has straight walls that go 4 feet down. He still managed to get two koi by just standing on the ledge. BTW the surface of the pond starts 6 inches below the ledge. Yes deep water deters them. But if the koi come up near the surface where the heron is standing then all bets are off.
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Old 10-13-2006   #23 (permalink)
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in one sentence : he is ht emoderator of this forum. stan
*waves and nods at Jim, aka jnorth, moderator of this forum*

I have already been pleased to make Jim's acquaintance some time ago, Stan. What's your point?

For the record let me point out that I recommended heron shock therapy, not illegal heronicide, of the few avenues I could think of at that moment to deter such a determined predator. I did suggest that a depredation permit (thanks bekko) might be sought to deal with this problem, but did not recommend nor am I recommending it as a solution. Jim's caution is well warranted and should be heeded--I'm glad he offered the letters of the law in this matter. He illustrates just how difficult it must be to rid oneself of a professional eater that has diplomatic immunity.

*smiles and nods*

I used a combination of netting, barking dog with wild eyes and a strand of hotwire along the ditchbank where the heron came in. Haven't seen it since. But everybody's situation is unique. What works for me might not work for someone else for whatever reason (where you going to find that barking wild-eyed dog I was talking about, anyway? *LOL*).

It's okay. Thomas Edison once said, "I haven't failed. I've just found 10,000 ways that don't work." So let's keep troubleshooting, since it looks like there is more than one person having heron problems right now. There are got to be some more creative ways to deal with this and see what else works for people.

Like the pics I've seen of the mudponds in my searches of the net, it looks like fishing line or cord is strung at close intervals across them. I wonder if that's an option to keep them from flying in.

Another possible deterrent came to mind earlier today--noise. There are infra-red beam sensors that are used to create a security barrier around swimming pools. When someone (or something) crosses that barrier a piercing alarm sounds. Birds are startled by sudden noises. Perhaps a few adrenaline rushes will hurry the heron on it's way.

All just ideas. I'm sorry if I offended or alarmed anyone.

Marie


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Old 10-13-2006   #24 (permalink)
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All just ideas. I'm sorry if I offended or alarmed anyone.
Not even remotely offended or alarmed.

Speaking of herons. See the attached pic. Same tear on the head. This koi was hit 4 times today and is still alive...barely. The fourth hit is on the other side.
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Old 10-13-2006   #25 (permalink)
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Not even remotely offended or alarmed.

Speaking of herons. See the attached pic. Same tear on the head. This koi was hit 4 times today and is still alive...barely. The fourth hit is on the other side.
Aw man, Jim...
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Old 10-13-2006   #26 (permalink)
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The strands of monofilament fishing line overhead will keep them from flying in. However, sometimes they will walk/climb through strands of fishing line at ground level.

Netting over or around the pond must be at least a foot or so from the water. They will poke fish through the netting even though the fish is too large to get back out through the netting. They will land on top of netting making it sage down into the water.

They will eventually get accustomed to noise makers, scarecrow sprinklers, rubber alligator heads, flash tape, evil-eye balloons, whirly-gigs and all the rest of that stuff. Each of these work long enough to make you gloat and feel like the problem is solved, then AUGHHHH.

Black-crown night herons (but not great blues and others) will pick at plastic netting and cut holes with their bills. When the hole is large enough, they walk through and help themselves to your fish. They remember where the hole is and return to it.

If a night heron is captured, taken thirty miles away and released it will be back at the pond within a week.

Green herons will drop pieces of food into the water as bait to attract small fish.

-ste veho
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Old 10-13-2006   #27 (permalink)
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Steve if they are as clever as you say, it sounds like someone needs to invent a heron trap. You catch them alive and then take them somewhere they can't find their way back from.
Mitch
PS
I also have a problem with koi getting scratches on their head. I have these large, neat looking rocks that stick out over the water a good ways in some cases, and I also think the pond looks best when it is really full and some of the rock are below water level. You can imagine what happens in feeding frenzies. Aka Mats are very white under brilliant orange head color and the scars heal black.
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Old 10-13-2006   #28 (permalink)
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Treating Heron-Inflicted Wounds...

Since we are on the subject of heron strikes, let's talk about treating the wounds that they can inflict because these types of wounds can be a bit extraordinary..

1. Skin scrapes... since the heron typically tries to grap the area behind the head (he does this because the fish does not wiggle there), we will often see the skin scraped and degloved in this area. If the fish is otherwise healthy, these types of wounds will heal by themselves as they are not deep tissue wounds.

2. Tears to the operculum cover area - these are nasty wounds and caused by the heron gripping the fish in the gill area and then losing it. Heron beaks are raspy and can tear skin tissue if the fish gets trapped in them... Typically these are open-wound type sores and need to be treated as such. An in-water anti-biotic, such as nitrofurazone or oxolonic acid, will keep down the pathogenic bacteria counts in the q-tank (don't use these in the pond). Topically treating the wound site can be tricky because of the proximity of the gills and our usual treatments for open wounds such as iodine or PP paste can cause damage to the gills. If you can do injectables, this is a rare time for a prophylactic antibiotic injection. Remember that at this point, the wound was not caused by an existing bacterial infection, such as an ulcer would, so we need to prevent a bacterial infection, not treat one. The protocol is different for this.

3. Puncture wounds to deep tissue but through and through wounds. This wound is caused by the heron striking the fish with its beak and puncturing the surface tissue but does not penetrate into the body cavity itself. Like the wound above to the gill area, we treat this in prevention of a bacterial infection with creating a prisitine environment for the fish to recoup in. Prophylactic anti-biotics are recommended again, using just a single Baytril or similar med injection.

4. Puncture wound to deep tissue but through to the body cavity. Now we have a real problem as the fish's body cavity is exposed to the environment. The first problem we need to solve is to prevent a bacterial infection and this can be done with a good in-water antibiotic, again using nitrofurazone or oxolinc acid. These are reasonably strong, broad-spectrum antibitoics that work well on the pathogenic bacteria we see in these situations.. they also kill filters so you have another problem in managing water quality. But the real problem is the loss of electrolytes as the fish is literally leaking its body fluids out of its body. And because the body is in trauma, it tends to leak more. To combat this, we look to a human trauma medicine technique and we create an electrolyte bath for the fish in the q-tank. This bath consists of sodium chloride, calcium chloride, and potassium chloride mixed in a 70/20/10% ratio respectively. This is one of rare occassions that I recommend sustained exposure to high chloride levels but you have no choice. What you are looking for is a "salt" (actually chloride) level of .6 to .8% to start and then moving higher if the fish does not respond. Calculate the volume of "salt" that you would need given to reach these levels in the volume of water in your q-tank and then using the 70/20/10 ratio, add that amount of sodium, calcium and potassium chloride to the water. Your "salt" meter or test kit (which measures chloride content) will give you an accurate enough reading. This combination of chlorides will help the fish recover and prevent a physiological breakdown of the organs.

5. Now the bad one.... blunt force trauma... this is the one problem we can little about. Since the heron strikes the head area, we often see a fish literally paralyzed by the strike. Yes, fish can concuss in the same way we do by a blunt force strike to the head. Every catfish fisherman knows the best way to dispatch a big cat is with a ball bat to the head. But even worse than a concussion, is damage to the spine and nervous system. I have seen the results of a heron strike on the "neck" region of the fish that separated the spinal column from the skull. If you suspect this, then euthanizing the fish is your only recourse. Although, not many fish will survive this kind of damage for very long with many just drowning.

However, if your fish has survived a blunt force attack to the head region, it can be treated. As with all q-tank trauma procedures, we start with salting the q-tank to .3 for starters and raising the temps to 78 deg F (optimal immune system temps). Chances are that your fish is in "shock" and is sitting on the bottom very quietly or laying on its side. One of the tricks to diagnosing neurological problems in fish is is to hold it level in the water and look at its eyes from straight ahead.. so you can see the position of both eyes...they should be level. Now, tilt the fish one way and then the other and watch the position of the eyes. In a healthy fish, the eyes will stay level.. in a fish with a neurological problem, the eyes will "tilt" with the body position. We can use this trick to adjudge how close a fish is to death as well.

In blunt force trauma cases, we will also see muscular disorders, such as spasms and curling. If the fish is otherwise breathing fine, you might want to try a single shot of dexamethasone, a corto-steroid. This can help relax the fish's muscles. The warm water and salt will help as well.

Keep in mind that all of these treatments are done in a q-tank where the water can be managed easily. Unlike ulcers, we typically have multiple problems to deal with from a heron strike, so look at all of the possibilities and exclude them as you go along.

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Old 10-14-2006   #29 (permalink)
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They will eventually get accustomed to noise makers, scarecrow sprinklers, rubber alligator heads, flash tape, evil-eye balloons, whirly-gigs and all the rest of that stuff. Each of these work long enough to make you gloat and feel like the problem is solved, then AUGHHHH.


-ste veho

Hmmm.....you didn't mention anything about them getting accustomed to ultra-high voltage, Steve. One would think that some strands of wire/webbing energized with 20kvac that keeps 2500lb brahma bulls IN their pastures would certainly keep a scrawny bird OUT of our ponds.

M
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Old 10-14-2006   #30 (permalink)
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Richard C. . . .

thanks -- both timely & thorough.
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