HI Development Observation

[Akai-San]

Question for the experienced keepers. I've been pondering the actual development of nishikgoi's hi quality. As baby koi or tosai koi grow, how does hi development get better? Is it possible that a small koi (with excellent growing conditions) develop or better their hi quality? If starting with small area of unclean line or uneven and thin depth of hi...has anyone brought a small koi back from the doomed? I'll be interested to hear your experiences with your subjects.

I don't have much experience with watching how hi develops or fades in young koi. I think once windows or edges start breaking up, the youngling will only go downhill from there. I'm starting to think that either the koi has it...or it doesn't. If it does have it, a keeper must do thier best to keep the hi development from faultering. I've noticed that the sumi on koi take more time to develop and or emerge from potential fish...still sooooo much more variables to study.

[Brady Brandwood]

Hi Akai-San,

This depends on a few details, such as environment, diet, size at age, lineage,... so would need to see pics. Some Koi bloodlines or lineages WILL actually develop the hi plate from a scrappy "iffy" look to a solid thick hi plate in the 1st 2 to 3 years. The Sadazo Sanke line is known for this. I'll try to get some pics today.

Best Wishes,
Brady Brandwood

[Akai-San]

Thank you, I would appreciate any information you can provide. I'm just developing some characteristics for myself concerning "quality" of Koi. You bring up the subject of lineage...a whole other endless topic in itself. I would love to learn more about the history behind those lineages. I have kept a book of notes and information over the past two years, but as of late, have not had time to research and or talk to other experts.

As important as lineage is, what do serious koi keepers think about those fish that do not start-off at the head of the class? I'm guessing 95% of the time, those koi are sold as soon as they can. And the experienced keepers will dwell in the nisai, sansai, yonsai purchases. Thanks Again.

[dick benbow]

This is a very elaborate subject and it is greatly affected by the genetics of the breeder. Keep in mind they are constantly changing parents and upgrading so it's a moving target......For tosai, good beni comes on what i call "tight skin"..kinda like the difference in fabric of cotton versus silk. If they don't have this quality at tosai it doesn't get any better with age. So while different beni's from different breeders may look different at the age of tosai, they all share the skin requirerment.

You can pick out good tosai if you get a chance and don't have to wait for
older koi. Keep in mind that koi are crops, some years you have better amounts of promising koi and some years less. On the years that there are more you can have a decent chance of making a purchase...but you will pay for the koi as if it's at the age the breeder feels he would normally have sold it. ( 2 or 3 ? )Also don't be surprised if your told the breeder wants to mudpond the koi the next coupla years at your expense as he learns what maybe a new parent has added to the mix!

Beni also greatly affects sumi, and you can tell with some keito what the chances are for sumi development. ( I've studied toshio sakai's for several decades) so I know what to look for...maybe we can talk Brady into sharing
on that topic.
























Also when it comes to gosanke with black in it, beni at tosai plays a gigantic role on how much black can be expected. Maybe we can talk brady into another lesson!

[bekko]

OK Dick. You are going to have to give a better explaination of "tight skin". Sounds like an important characteristic but I, for one, am clueless.

-s tevehopk

[Akai-San]

Thanks Dick,

This "tight skin" you are referencing, is it fully noticeable in smaller koi and tosai? I guess I need to go look at some examples of each.

I had plans to go to Mr. Sakai's Learning Class coming up this month but other things developed that wouldn't allow me to go this time. I'm bummed ! Hopefully he'll offer a similar class next year...I will lock my schedule to attend.

I remember his website placing a large emphasis on skin quality. He even mentioned that the only way to make the skin quality connection is "to see" the difference with your own eyes.


Steve,

How is everything going in Hawaii. Do you know if Bruce or anyone else is making the trek to Japan this year? Take Care! Aloha.

[dick benbow]

Wish I could beam you up to spokane this weekend. We have a true tategoi
in the tosai that we will catch,measure and document and it's easily seen if you can point it out with live koi. To me that's what's kept me from learning how to use my wife's new digital camera....in my opinion all I can show anyone is pattern, color is close not true and some of the important subtlties
don't come across for recognition.

for kicks here's another consideration....there are about 8 words in the japanese lanquage used to particularly select a red value...translate them into english and you get less than half

other considerations about tosai selection when it comes to beni.....how big is the pond this koi is going into and what is it's pattern. If the genetics is not magoi and the pond is small, chances are you want a fish to compete in the smaller size categories.....(smaller 20 inches, 21, 22 etc or under) these koi MUST
have a killer pattern and the red must be thick and bright. Koi that have the genetics to grow bigger and will be close to 30 inches when shown have less of an importance placed on pattern and more of looming quality. In fact with tosai a big ugly pattern on a 8-10 inch frame suddenly looks powerful and magnificent on a 28 incher.....the beni may start off looking rather orangish
and year after year add a reddish tone. This is where your study of a bloodline will help. Rule of thumb: black is always stronger in the tail and red is opposite, meaning when looking at tosai look for the same thickness of beni
behind the head as on the last tail stop patch.

body shape and hence the ability to grow in a proper sized pond can also be told at tosai. Look for a long head (meaning the length from the nose to the gill plate. here's another tip, Tosai raised in non crowded conditions have straight pecs and good round bullet shape faces. Those that were crowded
tend to develop pointy faces and the pecs tend to curve back toward the tail. Again the reason why I like to have a small class on hand to point this out, Once you've seen it you can easily distinquish...

sheesh! lots to learn and remember when picking out a koi! Member how easy it was when all you had to do was find a pattern that appealed to you! (LOL)

[Brady Brandwood]

Hi Akai-San,

I got some pics yesterday. Here is an example of beni that consolidates and thickens over time.

Also, notice the "window" on the shoulder that filled in.

Best Wishes,
Brady Brandwood

[Akai-San]

Thanks Brady.

I appreciate all your efforts to shed light on my questions and concerns. I have already become that much smarter in my studies of beni development....much much more to experience. I really need to see it with my own eyes.

Do you think that this tosai's beni will continue to improve (because of the bloodline). Upon first glance of the before and after photo's, I did notice the closure of the beni window on the shoulder of the sanke.

I've also been studying the sumi development over the shiro ground(s) of koi. My first observations of baby koi growth is the slow development of the sumi that is on the white grounds. I've noticed that sumi or finishing sumi sometimes takes a long time (I'm guessing bloodline again) on some fish. Does sumi on koi tend to emerge and develop faster on the beni pattern? Just some of my other newbee observations...

Aloha!

[dizzyfish]

Akai-San,
In addition to the excellent advice you have received here, I would recommend you try and obtain a copy of Kokugyo Vol.2 Nishikigoi Development by Mamoru Kodama. This book is full of excellent photos of the most popular types of Nishikigoi at different stages of development. On Kohaku alone there are 24 pages showing how different fish develop. How the fish may change can depend of the bloodline. There are many examples of ugly ducklings that turned in swans. Well worth the money IMHO. http://store.japankoionline.com/stor...tegory_Code=12
Mitch