Good Matches...

[John Bloch]

Heres a quick question for you...

Are there different types of koi that when mated together still produce a "pure" style offspring? like maybe out of 1000 fri 500 of them are yamabuki ogons and 500 are orenji ogons?

I just want to know if any breeds will do that... because it will probably change my next Koi purchase...

thanks!!!

[MikeM]

It is my understanding that Kohaku will produce only red, white and red & white koi. But, sometimes there is a Sanke lurking in the genes. So, picking from established lines is best. It is my understanding that with other varieties you have a greater need to know the ancestry to be able to predict. Yamabuki Ogon, for example, may throw a lot of orange metallics and Hariwake, as well as Ogons with smudges of black. An established line of Yamabuki will be more consistent. Maybe one of the breeders who lurk here will chime in.

[RayJordan]

cha goi to cha goi or ki goi to ki goi might be closest to getting 50% recognizable offspring the same as their parents. Most will still be poor examples but still recognizable.

Breeding Ogons produces lots of non or semi metallic babies. Add to that the messy heads, ect. and the yield of even medium quality ogons is less than you might think.

[John Bloch]

Quote: Originally Posted by RayJordan cha goi to cha goi or ki goi to ki goi might be closest to getting 50% recognizable offspring the same as their parents. Most will still be poor examples but still recognizable. Breeding Ogons produces lots of non or semi metallic babies. Add to that the messy heads, ect. and the yield of even medium quality ogons is less than you might think.

What are Cha Goi and Ki goi? I know it has to do with how complex the fish is, and probably the time they popped up in history... but I'm just not sure...

Ogons are that tough to make eh? so even if i had two Yamabuki Ogons and bred them together than I would get this "semi/non" mix? or no?

I think I recall someone somewhere (maybe in a different forum) posting something about mixing breeds to get a "split offspring" thing like I described... Ill look around... but please keep posting ideas and info!

Thanks!

[PapaBear]

Chagoi are generally Brown/tan or Olive drab, single color Koi. Very tame and usually grow large. Kigoi are solid YELLOW (not red like I originally posted, duuuhh ).
The problem with breeding for type is the mixed gene pools floating around. Unless you absolutely know the lineage of both parent Koi, (information that is only available on VERY expensive imports) there is no way to know what recessive genes may be hidden from view.
Last year our Kin Aka Bekko male spawned with our female Sanke. Their offspring included Shiro Bekko, Ki Bekko, Shiro Utsuri, Ki Utsuri, Hi Utsuri, Kohaku, Sanke, Platinum Ogon, Yamabuki Ogon, Orenji, Hariwake, Asagi, Kigoi, Chagoi, Ochiba..., some normal scaled, some metallic, Ginrin, and Kinrin.
Since they were of mixed parentage and no particular bloodline their offspring reflected a broad spectrum of varieties. Most of them were crummy crapagoi, but a few are pretty decent. Breeding for type is a nice goal, but even with known bloodlines the percentages aren't as good as you might imagine. Remember, no matter the variety they all originated from black food fish carp.

[John Bloch]

Quote: Originally Posted by PapaBear Chagoi are generally Brown/tan or Olive drab, single color Koi. Very tame and usually grow large. Kigoi are solid red. The problem with breeding for type is the mixed gene pools floating around. Unless you absolutely know the lineage of both parent Koi, (information that is only available on VERY expensive imports) there is no way to know what recessive genes may be hidden from view. Last year our Kin Aka Bekko male spawned with our female Sanke. Their offspring included Shiro Bekko, Ki Bekko, Shiro Utsuri, Ki Utsuri, Hi Utsuri, Kohaku, Sanke, Platinum Ogon, Yamabuki Ogon, Orenji, Hariwake, Asagi, Kigoi, Chagoi, Ochiba..., some normal scaled, some metallic, Ginrin, and Kinrin. Since they were of mixed parentage and no particular bloodline their offspring reflected a broad spectrum of varieties. Most of them were crummy crapagoi, but a few are pretty decent. Breeding for type is a nice goal, but even with known bloodlines the percentages aren't as good as you might imagine. Remember, no matter the variety they all originated from black food fish carp.

wait wait wait.....

so even If I breed 2 lets say yamabuki ogons (thats the fish I'm actually interested in) that I dont know the bloodlines of, there is no garantee that I will get any ogons out of it?

if so, things could be really really tricky for me to breed anything, and I'll probably stick with letting my fish flock spawn and just see if anything nice comes of it (which probably wont happen)

[saratogatan]

Quote: Originally Posted by PapaBear Chagoi are generally Brown/tan or Olive drab, single color Koi. Very tame and usually grow large. Kigoi are solid red.

chagoi is tea colored koi, and I believe kigoi is yellow koi. solid red koi is benikoi.

stan

[PapaBear]

I must've had a serious brain fart on the Kigoi . Chagoi can be variable shades and shift color depending on water conditions and temperature.

John,
Breeding Ogons will produce ogons, but not ONLY ogons. Even purebred parent Koi (as purebred as any Koi can be) will reproduce recessive genes in their offspring. If your Koi came from Petco or someplace like that there is absolutely no telling what their parents looked like. My Koi are from Japanese parent stock, but they are mostly flock spawned accidents. Some are decent, most are average, only a couple would be worth even considering taking to a show.
Established breeders of high quality Koi use carefully selected parent stock from well known bloodlines and they consider themselves fortunate to get 5-10% keepers.

[John Bloch]

Quote: Originally Posted by PapaBear I must've had a serious brain fart on the Kigoi . Chagoi can be variable shades and shift color depending on water conditions and temperature. John, Breeding Ogons will produce ogons, but not ONLY ogons. Even purebred parent Koi (as purebred as any Koi can be) will reproduce recessive genes in their offspring. If your Koi came from Petco or someplace like that there is absolutely no telling what their parents looked like. My Koi are from Japanese parent stock, but they are mostly flock spawned accidents. Some are decent, most are average, only a couple would be worth even considering taking to a show. Established breeders of high quality Koi use carefully selected parent stock from well known bloodlines and they consider themselves fortunate to get 5-10% keepers.

Ok Ok cool... so even mating say a kohaku with a sanke I could end up with a wierd fish of a different type thrown in there? and is it possible that I could end up with a kohaku looking fish and sanke looking fish?

sorry Im questioning so much... I just havent a clue about it... I should probably get a book...

If I had the time, I would just do it... but I dont, and I dont have the fish to do it with yet either... so I really dont know why I'm asking...

[KoiCop]

Quote: Originally Posted by John Bloch Heres a quick question for you... Are there different types of koi that when mated together still produce a "pure" style offspring? like maybe out of 1000 fri 500 of them are yamabuki ogons and 500 are orenji ogons? I just want to know if any breeds will do that... because it will probably change my next Koi purchase... thanks!!!

Quick Answer: No.