Rock Bottom Ponds

[REC]

This is an interesting discussion and it seems like all of the boards have been discussing it. We had so many inquiries about rock-bottomed ponds on KV, that we opened a separate forum just for them. What we found was that not everyone wants a "koi pond" and many people want an advanced water feature that includes nice plants and nice fish. There is no getting away from this and so, maybe the tact we all take is to educate folks on how to properly maintain whatever kind of pond they want and in such a manner that the fish are well taken care of... Somewhere in all of that discussion, someone coined the phrase "koi garden".. I apologize for not remembering who came up with it, but the name stuck and really defines what many people are looking for... a combination of plants, water and fish. And to many this means a rock bottom...

So, instead of just saying it has to be black or white, we went the education route and started talking about the pro's and cons of rock bottomed ponds and in that discussion, we left out the aestethics and stuck with ecology and physiology. We stressed that rock bottomed WILL (not might) harbor all sorts of aerobic and anaerobic bacteria IF not properly maintained and cleaned. But, rock bottom ponds also provide a nice haven for an active bio film, which is why you should never let your local pond cleaner drain and power spray the liner... dumb...

Maintenance is the key and we explained that this had to be done or the fish will suffer. Oddly, what we discovered was that many folks elected to remove their rocks once educated. The biggest reason was that they did not want to do the maintenance nor pay someone else to do it. But they did care enough about the fish to listen to the advice. So, I think the fish owners will listen if we educate them properly and not tell them it has to be one way or another... BUT..

The real problem as so accurately pointed out is the attitude and (lack of)education of the retailers and pond cleaning people. Keep in mind that this is their product and like many other retailers, they will sell you what is on the shelf as THE fix for whatever is ailing you or your fish. Love him or hate him, Dr Erik Johnson took on the task of educating the Aquascapes dealers on koi health and how the AS ponds could be used as viable and healthy homes for koi. Some of these guys got it, others did not but the process of education continues. But as an organization, AS is beginning to understand what is needed for a healthy koi/watergarden environment.

So, I guess my point is that we of the public bulletin board cult have to educate the masses on all aspects of the hobby, including helping those that want a "koi garden" to be successful. To paint the situation black or white on KB or KV or anywhere else will just drive the reader (who is looking for info) to someplace where they are more comfortable. And too often that comfort zone is providing the wrong information.

REC

[KoiCop]

Quote: Originally Posted by REC . . .the public bulletin board cult have to educate the masses on all aspects of the hobby, including helping those that want a "koi garden" to be successful. To paint the situation black or white on KB or KV or anywhere else will just drive the reader (who is looking for info) to someplace where they are more comfortable. REC

Not to put point too fine a point on it, REC, but I couldn't disagree with you more!

For the record I'm a huge fan of the work y'all do on KV -- but it's sort of like a K-6th grade education for koi newbies while this board is for more advanced hobbyists who've mastered the basics. Most of us are here because we're interested in learning about koi shows and show koi, their breeders, dealers, owners and ponds.

Many of us have evolved from that stone-age stage and know only too well the dangers to the koi and the keeper.

You can continue to provide those poor deluded fools with education, needles and condoms -- that's great. But we've kicked that habit and, hey, it's OK to just say no!

We are not going to dumb down our message: THERE'S A BETTER WAY!

And we'll be here if and when your 'students' learn enough to graduate.

[JasPR]

Dear REC, sounds very reasonable if you were correct in your basic premise. But unfortunately you couldn’t be more hoplessly wrong! OK, only teasing – but truthfully, this whole ‘lets put koi fry in a water feature and call it a koi pond’ is not about educating the uneducated. That is like giving a fish to a starving man. No, the REAL problem is MIS-EDUCATING. You could spend the rest of your life helping one duped soul after another and the marketing machine will still be creating thousands more at the source-
The answer here is to attack the mis-education so that eventually, just like gold fish people learned over the last decade about those tiny round, non filtered gold fish bowls not being a suitable home for their newly purchased fantails, the general public will learn that it is cruel and ridiculous trying to keep adult koi in shallow, gravel covered puddles.
Here are some examples of MIS education employed by landscapers and rock bottom liner types-
Koi hibernate like the water plants in winter
Koi waste is in balance with the plants and bacteria on the rocks.
Koi should only be fed once every few days and more will harm them.
Koi and goldfish have the same requirements ( their kinda the same fish anyways? In size and requirements- NOT!)
Koi will grow normally in a rock bottom puddle. ( as if)

These are not accurate statements ( and I’m being kind stating it that way) . The industry responsible for holding back the evolution of American koi ponds will pick and choose what information ‘works’ for the presentation and avoid or counter attack any information that rains on the parade.
Recently I’ve noticed that NO cleaning because the pond is reflecting nature has now changed to cleaning twice a year. This does not mess with the business and in fact adds to it, so it is taken as a ‘new truth’. But the margin is the thing my friend- There is no higher profit and wider margin that digging a hole, laying in a liner and sump system and then filling the job with stones- So the system will naturally resist any education that compresses this profit margin.
I have no evidence or statistics but I suspect that the ‘shelf life’ of the person who installs a stone puddle for koi in their yard is about the same as the average person who buys a ten gallon aquarium. In a year or two they give up on fish because of the problems and hassle of maintenance and health issues surrounding the fish. It is NOT the ‘living picture’ they thought they were buying. And so it goes—
Best Regards, JR

[REC]

No argument, JR... attacking mis-education or "re-education"... it is all education of sorts and given the oppty, we all can certainly attack the mis-information. However, as we all know, the real "truth" to this all lies in $$$, not what is good for the pond owner or the innocent fish. Your points well taken..

However, I guess I will take my "dumbed-down" message somewhere else since this crowd is beyond me.

REC

[John Bloch]

Allright, Ive been drifting in this thread for some time now...

I am one of those newbies I guess you all just say "no" to.. and evidently educating people here isn't really what you do (no, believe me, its true, I read it in a post somewhere or other) But I had a couple questions I wanted to throw out... take them or leave them... and feel free to just say "no" because obviously thats what you guys do here, because your so much more informed than everyone else...

Say you have a pond with rocks in it that isnt a "puddle",,, say a pond that's 10x18x5... is this still unacceptable?

to be honest, I was dead set on having a pond with rocks in it, but the idea of a pond with just a liner isn't so rediculus to me anymore...

but the thing is, In this thread, noone has stated why ponds with "rock bottoms" are so bad... sure, watergardens, but not just the pond with rocks in it... If I had just rocks in my pond (my five foot deep one) would it change things SO MUCH as to make it hard for the fish to survive, and throw off the balance of my pond?

thats really what I want to know... If the ROCKS are the actual problem as apposed to the Plants that are normally associated with a pond that has a rock bottom...

thank you.. feel free to say no.....

[KoiCop]

we don't say "no" to newbies and we don't say "no" to questions -- we say "no" to rocks in koiponds.

Short Answer:
Rocks trap crap, leaves, etc.. It all rots. Rocks make it hard to get rid of the decaying organics, which promotes the growth of dangerous bacteria and parasites. If the koi don't hurt themselves banging into the rocks the bacteria and parasites will get them in the long run. All the organics (DOC's, POC's, TOC's, etc.) in the water column guarantee your koi will never thrive and you'll be stuck at the level of trying to keep them alive. A rock bottomed pond = PortaPotty. Koi pond = toilet with smooth, sloping sides and bottom, bottom drain, swirling water, flushed frequently.

Long Answer:
I've abstracted this from posts in a thread located in another parish made by the guy who posted 2 posts above your last.

Water, water, everywhere but not a drop to drink---- cause it may be ALIVE!!!

Water from the tap- pretty dead really - some minerals, carbonates, gases, chlorine, but not likely much life.

Your town will check the bacteria count for you and confirm that.

But put that water outside- go ahead, I dare you. In a matter of a few days to a week, it will have LIFE in it. And this life will build on itself through a series of competitive battles and dominations. Soon some of the species will have actually changed the water to make it even more suitable for them and less suitable for competitors and interlopers. This is the way of nature and water is the stage that all microbe ‘actors’ are drawn to.

We are all familiar with the idea that water becomes balanced as microbes, algal species, plants and higher animal forms reach equilibrium. But that is not a permanent condition as frequently ideal conditions lead to future imbalances.

Fish tanks and almost all fish ponds can never be in this natural balance. The simple reason is that fish are placed in unnatural numbers (weight and body mass) in a limited body of water. Right out of the gate, the desires of the pond owner overwhelm the limits of the supporting microbes. And once the fish are put in the water, they, by their very presence, begin to ‘age and change’ the water itself.

When fish as large as koi go into a budding ecosystem, they tend to change it big time. They do this directly by adding manure and sloughing fish slime to the water column, along with ammonia and gases from the gills. Indirectly they exert change by causing other species to grow in greater abundance. The bacteria, algal species, fungi and protozoa expand to meet the new nutrient sources created by this unnatural biomass of fish. Normally a wild pond or lake might carry a ratio of 50,000 gallons to 1 kilogram of top of the chain fish. But in our koi ponds we run closer to 200 gallons per kilogram.


Ironically, the most deadly of these toxins produced by our fish-ammonia - is the easiest to remove! Filters manage that well as ammonium ions move out through the gills into the surrounding water and are delivered to a highly populated bacteria bed with the general turn over rate. So typically, the more rapid the turn over rate the lower the ambient ammonia level. Truly this level can never really be zero because ammonia is spilling out of the koi moment to moment and due to the typical pond size, it is being delivered hourly plus. This is why, by the way that a really excellent and really healthy koi pond is not swimming pool clear. In the great koi pond there is a look to water.

That look is created by microbes in the water column which attract and then attack ammonia ions. So the ambient ammonia is very, very hard to detect in such ponds.


But the topic of this piece is water and its evolution to ‘mellow’ water as the Japanese put it. And this is accomplished by the science and art of water management.


If ammonia is not the big issue, then what is? It is the organic component that continually impacts, and ultimately ages and crashes, a koi pond.

Often garden ponders thing they are creating a mini backyard environment in their yards just like lakes and wild ponds. And although there are similarities, the actual functioning of these different bodies of water are as different as night and day.


One of the greatest disservices to the ponding community is the notion that plants and bacteria can make a garden pond operate like a natural lake. A ‘living’ lake is a very complex body of water. It accumulates massive amounts of organics which sink to the bottom and then after fermentation and winter freezing, restore the quality of water making it possible for a resident population of fish to survive. And within that cycle is a natural algal cycle.

When this doesn’t work, we typically see ‘fish kills’.

But a koi pond is quite different. Some think that gravel will house bacteria and provide surface for bacteria to grow on? The surface area of gravel is extremely limited compared to the surface area of modern media in a circulating filter. The round gravel is typically 1/5 the surface area per square meter compared to say matala matting. In addition, once gravel is laid down in a pond bottom it becomes subject to bio-fouling. This is a process whereby organic coverage begins to do two things on the microscopic level: 1) lower ambient oxygen levels within the biofilm (decay) and 2) change the environment of the biofilm to encourage anaerobic species over aerobic nitrifying species. Slowly the gravel surface is changed from aerobic to anaerobic in nature. And of course it is bacteria like pseudomonas, aeromonas, flexibacter and protozoa like trichodina that LOVE this kind of environment.

I did want to add this quote from two sources- Spotte and Adey - as it is excellent and makes the point better than I could.

The quote is in regards to what is known in the scientific community as 'biological loading' which is the process I described earlier where living things impact water:

”Finally biologically filtered (closed systems) inevitably provide a high nutrient environment . There are many aspects to the eutrophication problem [organic buildup as in gravel bottoms – JR], including unbalance to some opportunist algae and microbes.

Overall eutrophication reduces carrying capacity of the water in general, interfering with its ability to support (higher forms of) life.”

Here is an interesting comparison of bacteria species associated with gravel

one gram gravel:

total aerobes - 10 to the 7th power
total anaerobic species- 10 to the 5th power
urea decomposers- 10 to the 6th power
ammoniafication facilitators- 10 to the 6th power
anaerobic denitrifiers- 10 to the 5th power
aerobic dentrification - 10 to the 6th power
denitrification (others) -10 to the 6th power

NITRIFICATION bacteria ------- 10 to the power of 3
10 to the power of 2 !


As you can see, the gravel in a koi pond is only passively a nitrification surface and usually only early on (before accumulated bio-fouling) and slowly becomes more of an organic processing surface.

But back to the ponds and the issues of organic decay--

The trouble with outdoor ponds, in addition to the dynamics of what is going in with the aquatic life, is the introduction of pollution from the outside world. This turns out to be a major issue for ponds in which things sink to the bottom and remain there. Gravel water feature builders in our area have switched from the 'nature does it all' pitch to a semi annual clean out schedule. This is probably wiser but, of course, still not the answer! But closer- I suspect eventually this now hybrid approach between 'nature will provide' and 'we will provide in spring and fall' will give way to bottom drain installations?

In addition to the outside decay entering a water feature, we also have 'inside pollution' being created by seasons- here we can see that the skimmer is picking up that portion of dead algae that is being produced by a autumn sun and cool autumn nights. The material you see in the holes of the skimmer pot represents only that portion of dead algae caught up in the current. The rest is in the stone bed.

In addition to that dynamics we have the fish themselves. These comets and other single tail goldfish are a small body mass. And like in an aquarium they will not grow too large in this setting. But koi are large animals. And very dirty animals!! With today’s improved genetics, even lower grade koi can be expected to grow to be at least 18 inches. Most higher quality fish are that size by age two!


People who are new to the hobby think that the fish they buy at the garden center are full grown- in truth they are babies- usually in the first year of their life.

Here is a picture of a typical adult size koi from Japan, please note that this fish is 'tall and full bodied' , as well as long --- Try and imagine even six of these fish in that gravel bottomed puddle I've been showing you.

And then try and imagine how much manure they can deliver to that gravel bed in a 24 hour period.

And they CAN get much bigger if at all 'encouraged.'

Now try and imagine real adult koi, kept by experienced koi keepers, in this rather 'pretty' pond under these conditions and water depth? Now you may also appreciate why some of us fight the good fight against hustlers and landscapers?

This is a koi ulcer. This happens when a parasite irritates the koi's skin or pollution wears away protective layers of fish slime and fish's normal immune response.


When a koi is 'bitten' or irritated by a parasite, it does the same thing your dog does when it feels a flea biting- it scratches itself! Only koi have no paws!! They instead, dash themselves against the nearest hard object- like a rock or bolder. Therefore koi hobbyists learned a long time ago, not to add tempting 'itching objects' below the water line.

I'm building the case, based on the time I have to spare right now. I wanted to cover the 'PHYSICAL' issues of garden ponds, and gravel issues then move onto the deeper environmental deterioration.


When I get to the shots of the gravel as a trapping zone, we can really get into how aeromonas feeds, how parasites exist and in what zones and finally the anaerobic nature of dead spots in ponds (or aquariums for that matter).

Stay tuned. 4th grade science will soon give way to graduate school level views of organic decay in the presence of growing koi.

JR (aka JPR, James P, JasP, JasR, John Smith, etc.)

[John Bloch]

Thanks!

Thats just what the Doc Ordered!

except I'm definitely no doctor...

[JasPR]

Hi John, just got home and see you have the long answer! LOls

I think that it would be best to see the general objections are two:

1) the physical size ( gallons and depth) of the rock bottomed water features being called koi ponds. And --

2) the issue of the rocks themselves and their tendency to trap and hold organic material of all kinds. The rest is a decaying zone in a closed environment. Lots of variables here- number of fish, size of pond, location of pond etc.


In a certain sense, a large rock bottom pond is 'better' based on stocking issues. But also 'WORST" based on the fact that turning all that water over rapidly is difficult and therefore the whole pond becomes a settlement system.
In a proper koi pond, the idea is to shape the floor so that bottom drains, along with returning water ( from the filters) all work together to insure that ALL organic material gets to a prefilter or sump ( where you WANT a zone for things to get trapped and/or settle out). There, they can all be flushed away and reduce the overall load of organic content within a system.
When you have a gravel or rock bottom, and a lateral flow of water from one end of the pond to the other- you have a river current within a greater body of water that actually encourages waste settlement within teh more quite layers and parameters. The result is a gravel bad that is turning the pond into a ever porgression eutrophication model.
Since koi are big and also very dirty animals they represent the greatest polluters of all temperate water fishes. Compared to goldfish, they have large body mass and very long guts that produce massive amounts of organic waste.
JR

[jnorth]

Guys this is always a touchy subject but lets not run people off. First of all, not everyone on this board is an expert. We have plenty of people that lurk and never post as they are afraid they will get beat up. I think the approach being employed at KV is one that suits well for them. Lets face it, most of the people that buy rock bottoms are new to the hobby. How would you like if you were a newbie and spent 30k on a koi pond and were then told you were ripped off because the rocks are going to kill your koi? You would be mad, ashamed maybe, and would probably then be disgusted and fill in your pond and leave the hobby. I don't think we want people to leave the hobby. So how do you handle people who already have rocks? When done the KV way you do it through educating them on how to clean the rocks etc and most people end up removing them after they find out what is involved. I think that is better then the alternative of them giving up. Now lets say someone comes in and hasn't built that rock pond yet. I'd tell them not to do it if they really want koi. Save them a lot of work and heartache. I guess what I'm saying is that when having a conversation such as this one its fine to bash the builders but we should also consider that some of the owners of these ponds who were duped into buying one don't really need to get hit on the head with the same rocks they have on the bottom of their pond by us. REC my good friend-Come on back. You have been assett to this board by helping many folks with their koi health related problems. I appreciate it and so do the people you have helped.

[John Bloch]

So what do you guys think about a couple nicely placed rocks? Im not talking about a big bed of gravel, but maybe a few larger "rounded" rocks? I dont think it would have the same effect... Its not like a bed that traps... I dont know... just a thought...


thanks for all your explinations guys...