Rock Bottom Ponds

[MikeM]

Over the line? ... hardly.

I don't think anyone would try the rock bottom ponds if there was full disclosure of the cost/work involved in maintaining them... even for goldfish!

[Nancy M.]

Quote: Originally Posted by MikeM Over the line? ... hardly. I don't think anyone would try the rock bottom ponds if there was full disclosure of the cost/work involved in maintaining them... even for goldfish!

Amen... to that Mike

[JasPR]

I do have to get one thing off my chest. REC is a good guy and I support him publically whenever some one gets on him unfairly. And I know he and our Mod here are friends. But I was kinda shocked when he took great offense for being gently challenged when his board KV has a permeant post/article vilifying me personally! PLEASE , I’m not making this personal except to say that the open letter to the public trying to humiliate me only went up after I began chipping away at the idea that gravel in ponds is a fundamentally bad idea And all I’m trying to do here on koibito is to keep it real- let the chips fall where they may.
( Jim N, if this one is too hot to handle please let me know and I’ll delete it, but please do not send the entire thread to the off world. Its too important for that.)

Peace REC, JR

[Sangreaal]

What kind of a difference would it make to place rocks on raised racks in the pond? Use a small pump to direct a current underneath them so nothing gets trapped...

...just a thought.

M

[PapaBear]

Quote: Originally Posted by Sangreaal What kind of a difference would it make to place rocks on raised racks in the pond? Use a small pump to direct a current underneath them so nothing gets trapped... ...just a thought. M

If there is a minor skin irritation of any sort they scratch the itch the only way they know how, and occasionally they just like to do it 'cause it feels good. Koi can also be playful chasers and if a spawn sneaks up on you (usually in the middle of the night) they get downright ROUGH with each other.
In any of these circumstances a rock is a potential source for an injury. If you could find a rock that was self-cleaning and inhospitable to all bacteria, it would still be a cut, scrape, or broken fin, just waiting to happen.

[KoiCop]

Think about it: This kind of thread with these kinds of posts can only be found on boards dominated by American posters. Why? It's because no where else in the world has the koi hobbyist been 'targeted' by the rock-bottomed pond industry and 'sold' their dumbed down message and inferior product.

There isn't any such industry in Europe, Africa or Asia -- only in America; the rest of the world knows better and won't buy their schlock.

Not only is America not ahead of the game, here; in this respect we're the laughingstock of the koi keeping world.

[KoiCop]

Quote: Originally Posted by Sangreaal What kind of a difference would it make to place rocks on raised racks in the pond? Use a small pump to direct a current underneath them so nothing gets trapped... ...just a thought. M

But why would one want to? I mean, what is the point?

I don't understand this unnatural fetish for rocks in the water, so please explain ('cause this makes about as much sense to me as placing boulders on the freeways and hoping no one hits 'em).

[jnorth]

Quote: Originally Posted by JasPR ( Jim N, if this one is too hot to handle please let me know and I’ll delete it, but please do not send the entire thread to the off world. Its too important for that.) Peace REC, JR

No worries JR, this thread is just fine.

For the record you mentioned Koi-bito condoning rocks...99% of the time I am posting just like everyone else which means its MY opinion. If I say "hey knock off the personal attacks" or "no free advertising" then I am acting as a mod. If I say "wow what great conformation" or "I like number 3 for show now" then it's just my personal opinion. I don't speak for Brian/Koi-bito unless of course I have my mod hat on. Being a mod is a slippery slope and I'll try to make it more clear when it's my opinion vs KB. As a "board" I would believe that the members would overwhelmingly say no to rocks. I'm in complete agreement. No rocks! I don't believe Brian/Koi-Bito has ever taken an official stance on it one way or the other . I will ask Brian though if he wants to weigh in on it.

[MikeM]

I've gone back to read my post about how somebody might compromise in order to have some plants in a koi pond. The value of this thread is to the people who have not yet become "kichi". For the new pondkeepers or folks thinking of moving up to a bigger pond, my post may not have been express enough. Nobody should misunderstand: I do not think there is any workable compromise that has rocks on the bottom of a pond. About the most a person could do is go to the expense of an exposed aggregate finish, but it will just become covered with algae when the pond matures, so it is a waste of money. There is simply no place for rocks on the bottom of a pond. I hope that makes my thoughts really clear.

[JasPR]

M, although we tend to pin the origin of 'rocks' on today’s installers, in truth, there is a history to using rocks in koi ponds. Its probably TFH publications that we in America owe our first general exposure to koi and koi ponds. It was the editor and magazine owner, Herbert Axelrod, that traveled to Japan in the very late sixties and early eighties and befriended Akira Tazaki and later Kamihata San, owner of the largest export koi company at the time ( also owner of Hikari foods).His early books about koi varieties and the hobby as a popular ‘sport’ and ‘art form’ of Japanese origins ignited a great passion in budding tropical fish keepers who read his many publications. Unfortunately, this is also the same publication that transferred tropical fish aquarium ideas- outside into koi ponds! Under gravel filters were the first attempt to make koi ponds like aquariums. They in effect ‘lifted ‘ the gravel off the bottom and allowed water to flow down through the grate system. And many of these early attempts can be seen in the ponds of Hawaii and California. But under gravel filters had one serious drawback- they clogged quickly in an outdoor environment with dirty koi probably the worst thing was that as they clogged,, the available usable surface space of the remaining unclogged areas lessened and at the same time attracted all the waste to its active surface! So a reverse undergravel filter came along in aquariums which worked better but not possible in an outdoor pond on the scale required. So ponders tried moving their gravel beds outside the pond. In some cases a header box was built and filled with stone. This made it outside the immediate fish area and also easier to get at inewithout disturbing the entire pond. This left turn in the hobby lead to many creative ideas for cleaning - one was to hook up a Jacuzzi blower to blast gravel and free and dislodge mulm that collected in the gravel. From this idea others began using lighter materials so that the blower could do a more efficient job. Finally, the gravel was removed all together in favor of lighter weight, better performing media like Jmat. Part of this decision was due to high incidence of aeromonas in these type of ponds.
So today when you see a pond with gravel in the bottom remember that you are seeing an old koi pond design from 1972. The core of the koi hobby is 34 years beyond that point.
JR