Rock Bottom Ponds

[PapaBear]

The Australian Koi Association Inc. still proudly displays a very complete set of instructions for constructing an underbed gravel filter system with percolating fringe bogs around the edges.
http://australiankoiassoc.bizland.co...truction.chtml
I was kind of surprised the first time I saw it there. Very old school outdoor aquarium type setup as JR described from the good ol' bad ol' days.
I'll take a pass on it anyway.

[bekko]

Within a few miles of here there are three ponds that I know of, an probably a bunch I do not know about, with gravel filters much like what the Australian site and James describe. They carry very heavy loads - much too heavy in my opinion. They are hardly ever, perhaps never, cleaned. Yet, they all run year after year without a hic-up. Obviously, they have long-since reached some sort of steady-state condition. Do they provide optimum conditions? Probably not. Are the goldfish or koi growing to their potential? Probably not. Are the fish sick or dying? No. Do I understand it? No.

-ste veho

[JasPR]

well certainly there ARE exceptions to the rules. And they tend to prove the rule in that they are rare.
I once visited a guy who had a 24 inch long fat ogon in a 200 gallon pond! And he grew it there!! The water looked good and the koi looked healthy albeit a bit odd shaped. Upon probing about such a feat I found that the man was on disability and was home all day. His wife said he spend 8-10 hours a day watching and taking care of his fish. He did constant water changes and fed then once every few hours used a fine net to remove collected waste -- hourly!!!!
I can tell you that latitude and longitude will play a large part in how a filter works as a LONG term arrangement. The presence of three months of bone chilling weather followed by a warming spring would crash your friends ‘peace’ for sure. Its really just biology and physics- the UG pulls water down through the plate or creates currents in the grid which pulls micro detritus and organic chains into the bed. There it is theoretically broken down to water, carbon dioxide and species of nitrogenous gases. And in theory, the plants manage nitrogen species and carbon dioxide- in theory. In realty too much a ‘good thing’ is too much! The amount of waste produced by fish like koi will move to the gravel bed and ‘fill’ the spaces and clog the flow. Steve you of course know the term ‘channeling’ ( no not talking to your dead uncle Ned through a medium!) But the physical phenomena that occurs when the gravel or stone bed is supposed to take in all water is an even well distributed way so that all surface area remains active, aerated and fed. Instead the clogging and overwhelming of ‘openings’ is slowing expanded so that just a few areas of gravel where the pressure is greatest remain- creating a channel here and there to the subsection below the plate. The overall bed then becomes a home for organic decomposition- a very bad thing.
Ironically, the concept of UG filtering was based on observation of natural ponds in which the base stayed ‘fresh’. The flaw is that mud ponds have mud sediment bottoms. This creates a ‘heat ‘ and temperature difference and water movement into the base is active due to that heat/ temp difference. Additionally, many wild water bodies have natural springs and underground streams that keep the substrate active.
And of course there are lots of wild water settings that appear to be deep enough and large enough to support fish- but have none. This is usually due to the stagnant nature of the water and the amount of decaying waste on the floor ( excessive gas release).
By the way, I have a solution for the rock bottom pond people and it will make them MORE money in the long run! The first one to offer me an embarrassing six figure dollar amount can have the answer!
JR

[Sangreaal]

Quote: Originally Posted by JasPR well certainly there ARE exceptions to the rules. And they tend to prove the rule in that they are rare. I once visited a guy who had a 24 inch long fat ogon in a 200 gallon pond! And he grew it there!! The water looked good and the koi looked healthy albeit a bit odd shaped. Upon probing about such a feat I found that the man was on disability and was home all day. His wife said he spend 8-10 hours a day watching and taking care of his fish. He did constant water changes and fed then once every few hours used a fine net to remove collected waste -- hourly!!!! I can tell you that latitude and longitude will play a large part in how a filter works as a LONG term arrangement. The presence of three months of bone chilling weather followed by a warming spring would crash your friends ‘peace’ for sure. Its really just biology and physics- the UG pulls water down through the plate or creates currents in the grid which pulls micro detritus and organic chains into the bed. There it is theoretically broken down to water, carbon dioxide and species of nitrogenous gases. And in theory, the plants manage nitrogen species and carbon dioxide- in theory. In realty too much a ‘good thing’ is too much! The amount of waste produced by fish like koi will move to the gravel bed and ‘fill’ the spaces and clog the flow. Steve you of course know the term ‘channeling’ ( no not talking to your dead uncle Ned through a medium!) But the physical phenomena that occurs when the gravel or stone bed is supposed to take in all water is an even well distributed way so that all surface area remains active, aerated and fed. Instead the clogging and overwhelming of ‘opens’ is slowing expanded so that just a few areas of gravel where the pressure is greatest remain- creating a channel here and there to the subsection below the plate. The overall bed then becomes a home for organic decomposition- a very bad thing. Ironically, the concept of UG filtering was based on observation of natural ponds in which the base stayed ‘fresh’. The flaw is that mud ponds have mud sediment bottoms. This creates a ‘heat ‘ and temperature difference and water movement into the base is active due top heat. Additionally, many wild water bodies have natural springs and underground streams that keep the substrate active. And of course there are lots of wild water settings that appear to be deep enough and large enough to support fish but have none. This is usually due to the stagnant nature of the water and the amount of decaying waste on the floor . By the way, I have a solution for the rock bottom pond people and it will make them MORE money in the long run! The first one to offer me an embarrassing six figure dollar amount can have the answer! JR

Okay JR. I'll offer you an embarrassing $000,001 for the answer...

[Sangreaal]

<------is NOT a rock bottom officianado

[JasPR]

I know--- but I ain't gonna tell yea!

Honestly all 'retro' ideas are the equivalent of putting make-up on a wart! The wart is still there and sooner or later the make up won't hide that growing wart!
All 'fixes' will extend the average life of the bed and maintenance is the ultimate still the remedy. The ideas I have would help but still make koi keeping a harder and more expensive thing than necessary.
In the case of proper koi ponds, organics have a very hard time establishing themselves in numbers. They get caught up in the current and via SG weight to the drain. They are rushed through the plumbing and then released from the current into a slow moving sump. There, 80% settle out and are flushed OUT of the system daily if one wishes. 20% hit a large biofilter and tend to be the 'fines' catagory. If they can settle on something like Jmat, they are broken down without overwhelming the nitrification biological function. And of course, cleaning 6 sheets of Jmat once or twice a year is hardly as difficult as cleaning two tons of decaying rock matter.
No matter how creative my idea may or may not be, it is still 'wrong headed' in that we all KNOW the better ways and that does not include rocks in the bottom of ponds or no drains in a koi pond.
JR

[bekko]

I am not here to promote rocks, I agree with conventional wisdom about filtration, and I do not want to influence any novice who may be lurking out there. This is just a sad but true story......

My friend Jimmy up the road is a Taiwanese guy with a small orchid farm. In front of his house is an attractive concrete water feature. The main pond is irregular shape and irregular depth with several side ponds and water falls, all fed from a 20 square foot gravel filter. It is probably about 5000 gallons all together. One of the side ponds has some pretty nice 8-inch fantail GF, another has some water lilies and marginals and platys. About 4-or-so years ago Jimmy was offered a deal and bought 100 small koi for the main pond. He was going to grow and resell them at a handsome profit. He gave a couple away to a friend and one or two might have died so he might be down to 96 koi by now. In the time that he's had them, they have only grown to about 12 or 14 inches. They are surprisingly uniform in size, but get uglier all the time.

When I have out-of-town visitors I often take them to see his orchid farm and he brings people by here. Every time I go to his place I say. "Jimmy, you should keep the kohaku and yamabuki but get rid of the rest of those koi". He always replies, "OK, how much will you give me for them?" Then we change the subject.

The first time I saw his pond I asked to see the filter. I had to climb up a rickety wooden ladder to look down into the gravel bed behind the main water fall. What can I say... it looked like rocks. The last time I was there I asked to see the filter again. Jimmy says, "Sorry, the ladder broke a year ago and I haven't found another". I asked if he had looked at his filter since the ladder broke and he said, "No, it's just rocks". Being persistent, I grabed the top of the concrete block filter tank and pulled myself up far enough to peer over the top. Sure enough, it was just rocks - same as before.

-st eveho

[JasPR]

Did I mention that my guy with the 24 inch ogon in 200 gallons of water had NO rocks? Instead, he had two large carwash size sponges. He rung one out every few days. That was his filter system. He did change 20 % of the water water once a day however, using a rapid drip system from --- a 55 gallon trash can. He filled it every morning and dechlorinated the water and then let her rip! Low tech at its best! JR

[mynamy1]

Just wondering if the rock-imprinted liner is acceptable to both the innocent hobbyists and the business people. If I were the latter type of people I would reject the above idea for business reasons, obviously more money is made in selling remedies and services. MALe

[MikeM]

JR, a comment above reminded me of a common misperception people have about natural ponds with no apparent stream or spring flowing in. They see clear, healthy water supporting a natural biota, including some fish, and draw all sorts of conclusions about water changes and filtration. The hydrology of such ponds is often far more complex than it appears. In much of Florida there are thousands of lakes and ponds of this sort. They are bodies of water formed by there being areas with elevations below the water table. The surface of the lake marks the water table (or very close to it). What people do not see is the movement of that water. The groundwater is flowing slowly, but inexorably. One lake with which I am familiar is approximately 1800 feet across. The water flow is approximately 3' per day in the dry season, and can be well over 10' per day in the rainy season. The water in the lake is slowly flowing into the ground on one side and being replaced by water flowing into the lake from the other side. In other words, in the course of a year the entire water volume is replaced by groundwater filtered through thousands of feet of sandy soil as it flows laterally through the ground. In smaller lakes and ponds, the entire volume may be replaced several times per year.

In some areas such waterbodies are in clay soils. The flow is much slower, but the clay has much stronger purifying effects.

....Nature ain't nothin' like a concrete koi pond.