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Old 10-28-2006   #71 (permalink)
Oyagoi
 
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J, my body had the same reaction went off cheese burgers!

There are a couple of possibilities here:

1) the gas released from the decay in the disrupted stone bed effected your fish.

2) when you removed the rocks and plants you removed the bulk of your filter bacteria. Upgrading a filter system is mandatory when you remove the rocks. In some cases, depending on fish load, the biofilter will catch up to the ammonia output of the fish in a matter of a few weeks. Don't feed during this time. DO do ammonia tests and nitrite tests and let us know the readings.

3) the stress associated with the removal of the stones and/or increase in ammonia due to the removal of so much 'good bacteria' along with the bad, has set up an opportunistic parasitic population explosion. If you have a koi club in the area, contact them and ask who the KHA ( koi health advisor) is and if they would come over and 'scrape' your fish for parasite identification and recommended treatment.


Unfortunately this is not a good time of year to be working on fish ( depending where you live of course).

JR
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Old 10-31-2006   #72 (permalink)
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Jhamil4ton: Don't apologize. This is very much on point. It is often true that on the boards folks assert perfectly valid principles, but do not teach how to implement those principles. Your situation is a good example. I apologize to you.

It is important to keep in mind that the goal in maintaining a koi pond is to maintain stability as well as prime conditions. Fluctuations are negative. When implementing any change in a pond, the method for doing it has to be thought through... especially in regard impacts on the whole system. JR has listed the likely sources of the flashing. I'd guess that ammonia levels have risen. I think the disruption of the pond is putting you through a bout of "new pond syndrome". This does not mean you did the wrong thing. It means we should have volunteered some advice on how to make the change.

First, a disclaimer: I am not experienced in koikeeping in four season climates, so my thoughts may not be applicable to your situation. Hopefully others will chime in with advice for four-season koikeepers. In the warm climate I know, the nitrifier community will be set back by the disruption, but will re-establish in a couple of weeks. In cool/cold seasons, some different approaches may be appropriate.

First, if the bio-filter is gunked up with debris, I would give it a gentle cleaning to get rid of the gunk with as minimal a disruption to the nitrifiers as possible. We want an active, healthy bio-filter operating. If there is none on the pond, it is time to get one and get it established first. This may need to be done a couple of weeks in advance to get nitrifiers established/re-established. Second, I would not feed for a couple of days. Third, I would do a couple of daily water changes to try to get the pond pH and hardness close to the pH and hardness of the tap water (or other source water) that will be used to fill the pond. On the day the rocks are getting removed, I would remove all fish to a holding tank. The water in the holding tank would be 100% fresh water. Then all rocks would be removed. Then all water would be drained/pumped out. Do not scrub the pond clean. You want to protect the slimy feel of the pond walls. Algae on the pond walls is an ally. That means you need to work quickly to reduce the amount of the surface that dries out. ...Hope for a cloudy day and start early before the sun is strong. The pond would be filled with fresh water with dechlorinator added first.(We do not want the nitrifiers surviving the disruption to be wiped out by chlorine.) Unfortunately, in many rock-bottom ponds there is little surface available for nitrifier/algal growth, because covered by the rocks. The pond wall surfaces are deprived of oxygen until the rock is removed. It will take a couple of weeks for the pond surfaces to be colonized if there is an active bio-filter, even if somewhat undersized. If there is no active bio-filter, it will take longer. Return the koi to the pond and don't feed until your water testing shows no ammonia or nitrite and some nitrate appearing. Then, feed lightly, gradually increasing over a period of, say, 10 days. Invest in some ammonia-binder, such as Ammonia DeTox (which helps neutralize some of the nitrite as well).

Currently you are suffering through the disruption and wondering how everything could go so wrong. You are heading in the right direction. Don't look back. And, keep in mind that if you had not gotten rid of the rock, you'd be going through health problems equal or worse to what you are experiencing.

Congratulations on crossing over to the "light side".
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Old 10-31-2006   #73 (permalink)
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Thanks

Thanks to both Mike and JR for the thoughtful replies. Over the weekend I moved my fish into a "new and improved" 300 gallon quarantine tank and went to work removing ALL rocks and plants from my pond. With the help of my lovely wife, I was able to complete the entire task this weekend. We also took the opportunity to clean the filtration. Unfortunately, we did also clean the pond liner with a brush...(thought it would be better). I've refilled the pond and re-started the filtration and feel good about the future. It looks so much "safer". I have a meeting in the morning with our local pond dealer to see about making the pond deeper and bigger. I will also be talking to him about setting up the bottom drain.

For the last few days, I haven't seen any flashing and my fish have taken the transition to the holding tank rather well. I purchased a few larger koi at the Texas Koi and Fancy Goldfish show auction a few months back and didn't want anything to negatively effect them.

Thanks again so much for your help. This board has proven unbelievably helpful to me since I have started keeping koi.
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Old 10-31-2006   #74 (permalink)
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You are most welcome. And I hope I'm wrong, but I have a feeling your new NEW pond will struggle for a bit. But don't get discouraged or feel you have made some kind of terrible mistake removing the stones- in the long run you and your fish will be much better off. Promise!
( let us know if you need any help as your new pond settles in. JR
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Old 11-12-2006   #75 (permalink)
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Update

Just a quick update...Once again thanks to Mike and JR for helping me along. So far everything is coming together nicely in the new pond. I did find why the koi were flashing. (I took the advice of many and purchased a microscope and performed my first scrape and scope.) It took me a few attempts and then wouldn't you know it....A FLUKE! I'm treating now and appreciate all of the advice. Thanks to everyone on this board who does not mind sharing advice.
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Old 11-12-2006   #76 (permalink)
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Glad to hear it. And the next time (if there is one), you're not going to be scared to scrape and scope. Don
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Old 11-12-2006   #77 (permalink)
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Absolutely...Much easier than I had anticipated. I also benefited from the posts linking to video of parasites under the scope.
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Old 11-12-2006   #78 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jhamil4ton View Post
I purchased a few larger koi at the Texas Koi and Fancy Goldfish show auction a few months back and didn't want anything to negatively effect them.
Were you the person who bought a cart load of Koi?
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Old 11-12-2006   #79 (permalink)
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I did...I purchased three koi and a bag of "5" fingerlings. I gave the fingerlings to a friend of mine and kept the three larger koi for myself. I'm really enjoying them.
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Old 12-08-2006   #80 (permalink)
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Bumped up for the benefit of John Russell... see post #18 for my idea of a compromised pond. No rocks.
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