Learning Nishikigoi

[PapaBear]

Quote: Originally Posted by Tamianth Thanks Lil for getting this started. Its really been a interesting and learning read for this person. Mr Winkler, as the forums renegade and proud owner, daring to be different, of strictly longfins, I loved the way you put it! I agree they are not Nishikigoi, and yes, the argument is a old one. But tell me, how do folks figure that they are not carp? Does not Koi & Goi both denote "carp" in definition as a overall coverage of all the species of and not as a independant? I would have thought that as independant names go Nishiki and longfin (sorry, I do not know japanese Kudos to Lil on that score! ) would be a more refined and finished way of denoting the differences. Perhaps it is a strange way, or advanced way, for me to look at this, but then again, as you aptly put it, it takes time and even the Doitsu had to find their place.... I like your touch of humor, you had me grinning!

All Koi are Carp, but not all Carp are Koi.
Nishikigoi is a specific artform of husbandry that is distinct from Goldfish "Carp" husbandry, which is also an artform within its own subspecies. Any attempt to interbreed between those two artforms produces a corruption of Carp that can in no way be described as "art" (those are some damn ugly babies)
Indonesian carp are happily more closely related to Koi genetically so they are capable of producing offspring that retain an artistic appeal, but it is a different art form. They retain the general patterning of Nishikigoi, but their bodies retain the indonesian form which is quite different in shape and balance. That places them on a different plane of existence and purpose.
Nishikigoi communicate a presence of power softened by a fluid grace.
Longfins communicate a presense of grace, further softened by daintiness.
That doesn't make longfins poor, but it does make them very different from Nishikigoi.

[lildude]

Quote: Originally Posted by Tamianth Thanks Lil for getting this started. Its really been a interesting and learning read for this person. Mr Winkler, as the forums renegade and proud owner, daring to be different, of strictly longfins, I loved the way you put it! I agree they are not Nishikigoi, and yes, the argument is a old one. But tell me, how do folks figure that they are not carp? Does not Koi & Goi both denote "carp" in definition as a overall coverage of all the species of and not as a independant? I would have thought that as independant names go Nishiki and longfin (sorry, I do not know japanese Kudos to Lil on that score! ) would be a more refined and finished way of denoting the differences. Perhaps it is a strange way, or advanced way, for me to look at this, but then again, as you aptly put it, it takes time and even the Doitsu had to find their place.... I like your touch of humor, you had me grinning!

hehehe, well you all helped me realize that the answers were in me. thank you for this.

[Bob Winkler]

Glad you got the book Grasshoppa.... Eastern Nishikigoi is a very good resource. It would be fun to see your face as you discover new horizons....Enjoy it, treasure it, read it, learn it, know it, live it, keep it. You are on your way.
You may see a picture of Waddy vaguely reminiscent of my avatar ... A big "next" aha will be someday if you have the chance to meet "The Great One".... In Japan. At Nomole's. Now THAT is really something. This book truely is the bible of koi for many, if not all, world class koi keepers. Treat it as such and you have the chance to be counted among them someday. Since published, it's principle's and information have been proven true time and again.

[Bob Winkler]

[quote=BobinCA;62928]

Quote: Originally Posted by Bob Winkler . Plants add to the bio load. Period. No amount of pruning will change that, but if you insist on having them as a part of your system, I suggest using the type of substrate that is dirt free. It is a type of foam, but I am unsure of the brand. Bob, Can you elaborate more on the foam substrate product for plants in a separate bog situation? (Not meaning to hijack thread) Thanks, Bob A

Hi Bob..

More info gathered about the foam and products Ray currently uses. Appernetly it is not exactly as I thought. One Foam actually floats and holds a pot holding the plant of choice. In the Pot is a mixture of two materials, one of which looks alot like planting mulch. He says it is not, but it looked like somewhat like that to me. he mixes in another wood chip like material and that is a very small layer in the pot. Then the plant. He promises to get me more details, but that is what I have for now. He claims to have much less 'dirt" in the pond due to not much for the koi to maess with, and also that the root and plant growth has gone through the proverbial roof.

Many people have asked that I get them a copy of the DVD I made of Sakai san's lecture in Sacramento 3 weeks ago. Unfortunately, the quality of the one I made does not translate well into a copy. I apologize that I cannot fullfil that promise.

[lildude]

So what is next?
I read all of koi kichi and it doesnt really go that deep into showing koi.
But after all it was written over 10 years ago.

[Bob Winkler]

Dude, you really are killing me. One more time, and from the top.

Pay attention to the answers you are given to your questions. (Most important)

Follow directions given to you on how to learn this material. That shows you are paying attention.

Answer the questions to the best of your ability that I posed to you on this very thread (page 17 I think) about conformation, or....

Ask for help with them. This is an ok option. You are not expected to get all, or even many, of the answers "right" yet, as much as you want to, or think you should be able to.

Prove that you are ready to move past that point by your answers.

That is what is next or still on the table, depending on your point of view.

If that is not acceptable to you, or you choose not to follow the advice listed above (and on other threads posted on this board directly by me to you or any other location that I come across you are asking similar questions on), that is ok too. Really. But recognize that I will take that as a signal that you do not want my input and help. You will have to learn at your own pace, by your own devices, and from sources other than I. Hopefully that was clear.

[PapaBear]

Quote: Originally Posted by lilhelper So what is next? I read all of koi kichi and it doesnt really go that deep into showing koi. But after all it was written over 10 years ago.

Why do you suppose that is lil'dude?

[lildude]

Quote: Originally Posted by Bob Winkler Ok... some pix that hopefully illustrate some good and bad points of koi shapes from JR's posts on Conformation. 1st-Let's focus on discerning some not quite so ideal conformation. While these are mostly fairly nice koi, see if you can pick out exactly what I am thinking of as not quite the ideal. Some pix are easier than others. To keep you on your toes and challenge you a little bit, I mixed in some pictures of koi with what I consider very very good conformation. Hint: Use JR's post, and also think along the lines of "for their age and sex". You may already know this, but to make viewing the pictures easier, download them all to their own file folder, and then view as a filmstrip in that file. Easier to look at the group and bounce between them. If you prefer, I can give you the answers. I am one who firmly believes that we do not learn or retain as much without venturing out there a little bit. . Your choice. If it is a good conformation, that is all you need to say, but if you wanna live on the edge and go for the A.P. college credit in Conformation 401, try and say how old you think the koi is at the picture time, and whether you think they are male or female. Score well grasshoppa, and you will be ready for semester 2. and I might even answer your most burning and repeated question if you haven't already found out the answer. Points if you repeat it (the question) one more time along with your answers. But then I never want to hear you speak of it again Actually either way....LOL.. ok, ok.. I need to get a life, really...LOL To Identify pictures, please use a Letter for the row Top to Bottom, and a number for the picture when reading right to left . Example. The first picture in the series is a Purachina and it would be picture # A1, and the cow with the pretty painted fish on the side is picture B5. Got it? Please no hints from the peanut gallery b4 Grasshoppa answers, but after that please feel free put your two (or eleven) cents in. Enjoy the book Seito. But please remember the old cliche' "a shooting star is often one that burns too hot and too bright". It doesn't last. LOL.. Private "old man's" Joke Slow and Steady wins the race.

Ok here is what I think YO!

1. D2: this sanke is pretty excellent. It ranks top in my mind. Extremely thick caudal area (tail tube), Very thick body, Awesome Bone structure to support all that thickness!
2. A4: Head is a bit too long, but its head does fit the body, its tail tube is nice and thick. Its bone structure is great. The body looks very robust.

• D5: The best Conformation

4. B3: This koi is pretty good, it does look like a young fish though. Its conformation is a little off, but it is over all pretty good.
5. D3: This Showa-sanke can’t tell the difference, is really good, the Conformation to the length of the head is great, and in proportion, but the width of the head is imperfect, it is off by a bit, so the sanke/showa’s conformation is pretty good overall.
6. A2: Upper Asagi in the picture. It is hard to tell but it looks great from what I can see. The head looks like it fits the body very well.
7. C4: I think its head is a little narrow, but the over all package is superb.
8. D1: Even though I cannot see the entire fish itself, the head is great, and where it connects is almost perfect, I would like to see this one have a bit of a bigger mouth though.
9. B2: Conformation is acceptable, but the head is a bit too long.
10. B4: the koi’s overall conformation is pretty good, but the head screws it up a bit in my mind, it is as almost the head was put on incorrectly, but everything else is pretty good.
11. A5: Conformation is a little out of whack but its probably going to be good, the head is big on a small koi, I think its proportion will go better in the future.
12. A1: The way this photo is taken it is very hard indeed to judge this, but if it were taken better, it would have ranked higher.
13. A3: The body thickness is pretty good, but its head is far too small for the body, it looks like a fat trunk getting rapidly smaller at the head.
14. C1: This tancho shusui is really skinny, it is lacking food or sick, its conformation is just inferior to the others, It pretty much resembles me, Long and skinny, though I will fill out, This tancho shusui will not.


Please let me know if there are any missing

[Bob Winkler]

A good start... You made some astute observations and misfired on some others IMHO.. But that is to be expected, so do not be disappointed. May I ask how long you looked at these koi and decided? quick? or slow?
If I counted right, you missed 5 fish, namely #'s B1, C2, C3, C5, and D4. Finish with those and the report will come back with what my best thoughts are. Please, others may join in with their 3 cents about conformation. I certainly am not the authority.

[aquitori]

Bob, everyone has a pupil that ask too many questions in one setting....If I see the kid one of these days at the koi shop I think I will break him down for you...hahahaha...And I have Grasshoppa needs to learn first the humble side of the hobby, I can say that nothing has come easy...even info...Teachers are willing to teach if the student shows signs of that humbling factor....JMHO