Learning Nishikigoi

[Bob Winkler]

He was just joking Grasshoppa, and not necessarily talking to you.... Gear down Big Shifter, before you react

Thoughts on your conformation examination

Pictures are near impossible to judge from, but remember I was trying to show good and mediocre to poor conformation. So what you see is what you get, and you have to judge them that way. Can’t give extra credit, nor take it away, based on what you “think” the koi might really be. In real life and live, it is easier.

My unbiased and “cold” thoughts, in order.

A1- Terrible conformation on this Purachina. Very Egg bound, tiny tail tube and pec fins for it’s body. Worst of the Group. Other unrelated points good and bad: Yellow head. On the good side, the rest of it’s skin is pretty decent. 5 years old, female, 20”, Domestic. Cost. $30 picked by my step daughter at a koi show, so we still have it. Tried to talk her out of it when it was 3”. No Dice. I do like it’s personality and it can cook, but other than that…pppptttthhhh.

A2- 2 Asagi’s. You concentrated on the upper one as pretty good. Which it is. But the Lower one is much better. The upper one has too small of a head compared to the mid body. The lower one is holding eggs, but see the difference from A1. Not too much for it’s body. And the head size is better than top one. See how the size of it’s head flows right through to the body? The shape of the head of the lower one is ideal to me, and what I look for in koi of this size. 6 years old, 85 cm (~34”), female, breeder Marudo. Cost was $6-10k in Japan.

A3-Goromo. You got what I was saying about it’s head being too small. I thought it looked almost unreal in person when I saw it. Beetlejuice Beetlejuice Beetlejuice. Would be a great koi if it had the Asagi’s head, or some others in this group. Matsunosuke bred, 3 years old, 70 cm, female.

A4- Kohaku- You got the part about the head being too long for the body. That was what I wanted you to see in this picture. But there are some who would tell you that this is a good predictor of growth. That this koi would be big later on. The truth? At 7 years old this koi is about 22”. In this picture it is 20”, Nisai, Female, Suda is the breeder. Cost $250 in Japan. I liked it’s body over all for it’s age and sex, but I think the nose is a bit square. In real life, but you can see it in this picture. It went into an unheated pond here in Colorado, so didn’t grow much, but I don’t think it would ever have been above 26” in any pond.

A5-Showa. This one has a chance for the future, but you are right, right now the front half is too big for the rest of it’s body. The skin is pretty good, which is especially evident in the shiro areas. Hard to get skin like that in Showa. It is Nisai in this picture, and about 14”, but the worry is the back half. If it catch’s up to the front half, it could have great conformation and be stunning. Otherwise, it might end up like the A1 purachina. There are other concerns with this showa though. The hi, sumi, and pattern balance. Both colors have come along a little since this picture, but it is at least a 6 year project. Breeder is Brady, so it is domestic.

B1- Kohaku- Does the skin look familiar? Same breeder as the last Showa. I like it’s conformation right now better than the showa, but not sure either will get much above 26”. Which is important to me as a koi keeper looking to purchase, but not when judging koi for this, or any other, exercise.Very nice in this picture at about 12” and 2 years old. It just flows well. Can you see that? I like the hi quality better today too. Wish it had a bit more balance of pattern.

B2- Sanke- You are right, the head is too long, but what it really is too slender for the size of it’s body. This koi is 6 years in this picture and 26”. But too slender over all. Not just the head. That makes the head look so long. I was also trying to get you to look at the eyes. Do they seem off set compared to each other? They are also a little “bulging”. That is not just the picture grasshoppa. This also draws one’s attention to the head size. This is Igarashi Kazuto. Very nice skin and hi quality. A hint of the fukurin is showing in this picture, but in real life it is blinding.

B3-Kohaku- This 4 year old koi DOES have a younger koi’s conformation, but dude.. it is 26” and 4 years old so not a young koi particularly, and it is way too slender for it’s age. POI. This koi died two years later of “wasting disease”, which I was not familiar with b4 this experience. It never made it to us in Colorado, and the breeder did us a favor with a purchase when it came out of the mud pond, as it did not develop as he had hoped. Breeder is our hero Sakai San. We loved the beni, pattern, quality, skin, EVERYTHING except the conformation. When bought at 3 years old, it had better conformation. Great example of where the conformation sinks the fish, but one can sometimes be swayed by how outstanding the other qualities are. Picture this koi in a show against a 26” koi with a decent pattern, decent skin, but better conformation. Now make that choice in 2-5 seconds, and you can see what usually must happen on the judging side of the tank. 150 times.

B4-Sanke. This was a bit of a trick, as this is the same koi as in C5. In B4, the koi is 3 years old, and the C5 picture is taken 4 years later, and the fish has grown some 2 ½ inches to 25 ½” at 7 years old. But no girth. This kills it. Same too slender conformation evident in both pix. The head is actually the right size and shape for the age, but it is the body that is not. In a way, you are saying the same thing, but concentrating on the wrong component, IMO. Skin, Beni, sumi, and Shiro look pretty good to me, and I always loved the head pattern.

C1-Doits Tancho- I don’t like this koi much. Hard to say which is worse, the Purachina, or this one. Good thoughts by you.

C2- Kohaku- You made a very good read on this koi. It is a Toshio Sakai fish, bought as Tosai. At Nisai it was 19.5”. Female. Actually, it’s sister had a little better conformation and size (21”) in our pond at the same age, but this is the “one”. Gave the bigger koi to a friend in Denver at age 3. This kohaku is near perfect (in my mind) conformation, and damn good in everything else. The master himself said this was a high class tategoi when he saw it again in this country after I had had it for a year. I was worried about the shimi just at the shoulder, and he said just take the scale off, it would grow back… …But I did when I got her home, and a month later, you could not tell anything had ever been done. I was always worried about doing that in a beni area b4, and esp in a highly visible area. But absolutely no problem. Maybe Sakai San does know a little about koi after all.

C3-Kohaku yes, but not Doits… It is that good! This is a disadvantage of pictures. Look closer. You can see the scales and Marusome Kiwa. I do not think the fin is smaller, just the picture and the angle it was holding it at that time. Great koi. Near perfect on every level.

C4- Kohaku- Great koi, and you saw what I was thinking,…. Head shape…. Is there a theme here?? LOL This is Igarashi Kazuto and Sansai. 65 cm, and bookoo bucks. Has the skin of all great Iggy koi.

C5- See earlier comments.

D1- 75 cm Yamabuki from the 2002 all Japan Show. Similar to our own “baby” in some ways. You hit this one on the “nose”. Good job, as the nose is just subtly narrow. Some might disagree with it being narrow at all, but I thought so.

D2- Sanke. This was the famed GC of the 2002 All Japan show bred by Sakai San. 1st Gosanke over 100 cm. You are right. It is tops, it doesn’t get better. Better than D5 even if they were the same size, but it is 40 cm bigger. Dats no small potatoes.

D3- Sanke- Good read on this koi, though with the mouth open, lends one to feel like what you said about the head. In reality, it is a very good head shape. This koi was young champ at two US shows, and RC a year ago in Denver. Pretty darn good koi. Even if I did tell them to get rid of it before it garnered all it’s acclaim. See?? What do I know… LOL..Bred by Hiroshima Sakai (I think) and owned by Jan and Scott Thompson here in Colorado. They may be able to chime in with some details like size, and age, etc.

D4-You missed this one? Maybe this is the one you labeled D5 as Showa. Marudo 24” Yonsai Showa. Like a lot of koi pictured in this group of 20 koi, it is too slender. But the main comments I was looking for are about the body asymmetry and the eyes. A little bit bulging. Many people will miss a slight body asymmetry especially when the koi is pretty good. Which this one is. The Doits Sanke has pretty good conformation, but a little more challenging to see in this picture. I loved that koi. And much cheaper than the Showa.

D5- Kohaku- I can’t be sure you commented on this one, other than saying it had best conformation of the group. As mentioned, D2 along with several to many others, are better. A very nice koi, but I didn’t like the head and body combination. Pinched at the shoulders to me, and the dreaded eye bulging, but that may be just the picture.



I realized only after going through your answers that you may have been “ranking” or listing them in order of best to worst. If so, you did pretty well. However, you can see I didn’t think much of our own koi B3, nor D5, A4, or A2 (the Asagi you picked). So with a little moving around, you did well. I was looking more for what you thought about each's conformation on a good and bad level. Ranking them best to worst was more work than you were "assigned", but that is ok too.


Does my line of thinking on conformation as it relates to these koi make sense to you? Take your time to digest the comments I made, and also the Koi Kichi book, for that matter. Please honor how I asked you to read and study it. You probably already are. What questions or comments about them do you have at this time? I mixed in some background, skin, and overall quality comments to help “flesh out” the picture of these koi as I see them. And to lay the groundwork and whet your appetite for coming topics.

I hope this was helpful to you, Seito. The answer you have been seeking is 26. If you have not already discovered that.

[lildude]

Quote: Originally Posted by Bob Winkler He was just joking Grasshoppa, and not necessarily talking to you.... Gear down Big Shifter, before you react Thoughts on your conformation examination Pictures are near impossible to judge from, but remember I was trying to show good and mediocre to poor conformation. So what you see is what you get, and you have to judge them that way. Can’t give extra credit, nor take it away, based on what you “think” the koi might really be. In real life and live, it is easier. My unbiased and “cold” thoughts, in order. A1- Terrible conformation on this Purachina. Very Egg bound, tiny tail tube for it’s body. Worst of the Group. Other unrelated points good and bad: Yellow head. On the good side, the rest of it’s skin is pretty decent. 5 years old, female, 20”, Domestic. Cost. $30 picked by my step daughter at a koi show, so we still have it. Tried to talk her out of it when it was 3”. No Dice. I do like it’s personality and it can cook, but other than that…pppptttthhhh. A2- 2 Asagi’s. You concentrated on the upper one as pretty good. Which it is. But the Lower one is much better. The upper one has too small of a head compared to the mid body. The lower one is holding eggs, but see the difference from A1. Not too much for it’s body. And the head size is better than top one. See how the size of it’s head flows right through to the body? The shape of the head of the lower one is ideal to me, and what I look for in koi of this size. 6 years old, 85 cm (~34”), female, breeder Marudo. Cost was $6-10k in Japan. A3-Goromo. You got what I was saying about it’s head being too small. I thought it looked almost unreal in person when I saw it. Would be a great koi if it had the Asagi’s head, or some others in this group. Matsunosuke bred, 3 years old, 70 cm, female. A4- Kohaku- You got the part about the head being too long for the body. That was what I wanted you to see in this picture. But there are some who would tell you that this is a good predictor of growth. That this koi would be big later on. The truth? At 7 years old this koi is about 22”. In this picture it is 20”, Nisai, Female, Suda is the breeder. Cost $250 in Japan. I liked it’s body over all for it’s age and sex, but I think the nose is a bit square. In real life, but you can see it in this picture. It went into an unheated pond here in Colorado, so didn’t grow much, but I don’t think it would ever have been above 26” in any pond. A5-Showa. This one has a chance for the future, but you are right, right now the front half is too big for the rest of it’s body. The skin is pretty good, which is especially evident in the shiro areas. Hard to get skin like that in Showa. It is Nisai in this picture, and about 14”, but the worry is the back half. If it catch’s up to the front half, it could have great conformation and be stunning. Otherwise, it might end up like the A1 purachina. There are other concerns with this showa though. The hi, sumi, and pattern balance. Both colors have come along a little since this picture, but it is at least a 6 year project. Breeder is Brady, so it is domestic. B1- Kohaku- Does the skin look familiar? Same breeder as the last Showa. I like it’s conformation right now better than the showa, but not sure either will get much above 26”. Which is important to me as a koi keeper looking to purchase, but not when judging koi for this, or any other, exercise.Very nice in this picture at about 12” and 2 years old. It just flows well. Can you see that? I like the hi quality better today too. Wish it had a bit more balance of pattern. B2- Sanke- You are right, the head is too long, but what it really is too slender for the size of it’s body. This koi is 6 years in this picture and 26”. But too slender over all. Not just the head. That makes the head look so long. I was also trying to get you to look at the eyes. Do they seem off set compared to each other? They are also a little “bulging”. That is not just the picture grasshoppa. This also draws one’s attention to the head size. This is Igarashi Kazuto. Very nice skin and hi quality. A hint of the fukurin is showing in this picture, but in real life it is blinding. B3-Kohaku- This 4 year old koi DOES have a younger koi’s conformation, but dude.. it is 26” and 4 years old so not a young koi particularly, and it is way too slender for it’s age. POI. This koi died two years later of “wasting disease”, which I was not familiar with b4 this experience. It never made it to us in Colorado, and the breeder did us a favor with a purchase when it came out of the mud pond, as it did not develop as he had hoped. Breeder Toshio Sakai. We loved the beni, pattern, quality, skin, EVERYTHING except the conformation. When bought at 3 years old, it had better conformation. Great example of where the conformation sinks the fish, but one can sometimes be swayed by how outstanding the other qualities are. Picture this koi in a show against a 26” koi with a decent pattern, decent skin, but better conformation. Now make that choice in 2-5 seconds, and you can see what usually must happen on the judging side of the tank. B4-Sanke. This was a bit of a trick, as this is the same koi as in C5. In B4, the koi is 3 years old, and the C5 picture is taken 4 years later, and the fish has grown some 2 ½ inches to 25 ½” at 7 years old. But no girth. This kills it. Same too slender conformation evident in both pix. The head is actually the right size and shape for the age, but it is the body that is not. In a way, you are saying the same thing, but concentrating on the wrong component, IMO. Skin, Beni, sumi, and Shiro look pretty good to me, and I always loved the head pattern. C1-Doits Tancho- I don’t like this koi much. Hard to say which is worse, the Purachina, or this one. Good thoughts by you. C2- Kohaku- You made a very good read on this koi. It is a Toshio Sakai fish, bought as Tosai. At Nisai it was 19.5”. Female. Actually, it’s sister had a little better conformation and size (21”) in our pond at the same age, but this is the “one”. Near perfect in my mind conformation, and great everything else. The master himself said this was a high class tategoi when he saw it again in this country after I had had it for a year. I was worried about the shimi just at the shoulder, and he said take the scale off…Eeek…Bt I did when I got her home, and a month later, you could not tell. I was always worried about doing that in a beni area b4, and esp in a highly visible area. But absolutely no problem. Maybe Toshio does know a little about koi after all. C3-Kohaku yes, but not Doits… It is that good! This is a disadvantage of pictures. Look closer. You can see the scales and Marusome Kiwa. I do not think the fin is smaller, just the picture and the angle it was holding it at that time. Great koi. Near perfect on every level. C4- Kohaku- Great koi, and you saw what I was thinking,…. Head shape…. Is there a theme here?? LOL This is Igarashi Kazuto and Sansai. 65 cm, and bookoo bucks. Has the skin of all great Iggy koi. C5- See earlier comments. D1- 75 cm Yamabuki from the 2002 all Japan Show. Similar to our own “baby” in some ways. You hit this one on the “nose”. Good job, as the nose is just subtly narrow. Some might disagree with it being narrow at all, but I thought so. D2- Sanke. This was the famed GC of the 2002 All Japan show bred by Sakai San. 1st Gosanke over 100 cm. You are right. It is tops, it doesn’t get better. Better than D5 if they were the same size, plus it is 40 cm bigger. D3- Sanke- Good read on this koi, though with the mouth open, lends one to feel like what you said about the head. In reality, it is a very good head shape. This koi was young champ at two shows, and RC a year ago in Denver. Pretty darn good koi. Even if I did tell them to get rid of it before all it’s acclaim. See?? What do I know… LOL..Bred by Hiroshima Sakai (I think) and owned by Jan and Scott Thompson here in Colorado. They may be able to chime in with some details like size, and age, etc. D4-You missed this one? Maybe this is the one you labeled D5 as Showa. Marudo 24” Yonsai Showa. Like a lot of koi pictured in this group, too slender. But the main comments I was looking for are about the body asymmetry and the eyes. A little bit bulging. Many people will miss a slight body asymmetry especially when the koi is pretty good. Which this one is. The Doits Sanke has pretty good conformation, but a little more challenging to see in this picture. I loved that koi. And much cheaper than the Showa. D5- Kohaku- I can’t be sure you commented on this one, other than saying it had best conformation of the group. As mentioned, D2 along with several to many others, are better. A very nice koi, but I didn’t like the head and body combination. Pinched at the shoulders to me, and the dreaded eye bulging, but that may be just the picture. I realized only after going through your answers that you may have been “ranking” or listing them in order of best to worst. If so, you did pretty well. However, you can see I didn’t think much of our own koi B3, nor D5, A4, or A2 (the Asagi you picked). So with a little moving around, you did well. I was looking more for what you thought about each's conformation on a good and bad level. Ranking them was more work than you were assigned, but ok too. Does my line of thinking on conformation as it relates to these koi make sense to you? Take your time to digest the comments I made, and also the Koi Kichi book, for that matter. Please honor how I asked you to read and study it. You probably already are. What questions or comments about them do you have at this time? I mixed in some background, skin, and overall quality comments to help “flesh out” the picture of these koi as I see them. And to lay the groundwork and whet your appetite for coming topics. I hope this was helpful to you, Seito. The answer you have been seeking is 26. If you have not already discovered that.

Yea I got it all, and I can understand it pretty good.

I like the Yamabuki ogon, I cant see its body but I can see its face, and it looks good

[Bob Winkler]

Quote: Originally Posted by lilhelper Yea I got it all, and I can understand it pretty good. I like the Yamabuki ogon, I cant see its body but I can see its face, and it looks good

So think you got it all? Ouch..Hmmmm. Remember Seito, when I cautioned you to take your time b4 answering? That was for a reason. You continue to not listen to my advice. You took less than an hour to completely absorb what I took two days to consider and write and you say you "got it all". I have been keeping show koi for 17 years and it took me longer to go back and consider what I myself had written to see if it really was that easy to understand. But maybe I am a bit thick. Are you a quick study? Or just impatient to move on? I would like to believe the former, but unfortunately it seems much more likely to be the latter. Yes, you did good, but still missed at least 1 out of 3 of the conformation "points" I was trying to get you to see. Including some big ones. Is 67% a passing grade at your school?? Not mine. You are not giving me a headache, as you worried about, but it is making me weary. All this blunt and out in the open honesty wears old people like me out. LOL.. I feel like Tom Lansing. LMAO. (Now THAT is funny if you know Tom. He is one of my favorite koi people. You always know where he stands) Usually I have kept my mouth shut, which may have been better. But don't lose heart, you still got about 2 out 3 right. There is hope. How would you do if I posted another 20 pix? Maybe Tonio was right... a different book might be more what you are thirsting to know. Maybe Kodama's 1st book, but you would be getting the show stuff you want without the "guts". A building without a foundation.

The truth? I think you should save the pix, and your and my comments and consider them for a week solid. Then put them away for a year at the end of that week, I think you will have absorbed all you are ready to absorb at that time. If you continue to study and improve your eye and koi keeping skills, you will have several aha and doh! moments when you go back and read it again a year from now. I do not mean that as elitest as it reads, but as the naked unsugarcoated truth. BTW, same approach with the book. Yes I have been told I can be painfully blunt when it seems a softer approach is not getting through.

Here is a bigger picture of the Yamabuki and also to give you an idea of it's size

[Bob Winkler]

Eric

I think after sleeping on this, that I am probably not cut out for being your online sensei. It is becoming more obvious that I myself am not patient enough, so it is difficult to teach another what I do not possess. It is not you, I am not ready. Please find somone local who can walk you through what you need, and I will be content with the sporatic advice I have historically given. I do not like how I am responding in this situation.

I hope you understand seito. Keep your enthusiasm, but I am afraid I am becoming one who might unintentionally take it from you. I will not be that person.

[PapaBear]

Eric,
The greatest lesson in conformation any sensei could ever hope to teach is to know your own .
I hope I'm not speaking out of hand, but here are my thoughts.
IMHO Bob W has just given you an example of his Conformation (character). A well balanced mind of knowledge, tempered by wisdom and humility. His desire to "finish himself" well provokes him to give "patience" another season in his personal mud pond. A very good lesson to my way of thinking. We all need seasons in the mud along the way

[lildude]

Quote: Originally Posted by Bob Winkler Eric I think after sleeping on this, that I am probably not cut out for being your online sensei. It is becoming more obvious that I myself am not patient enough, so it is difficult to teach another what I do not possess. It is not you, I am not ready. Please find somone local who can walk you through what you need, and I will be content with the sporatic advice I have historically given. I do not like how I am responding in this situation. I hope you understand seito. Keep your enthusiasm, but I am afraid I am becoming one who might unintentionally take it from you. I will not be that person.

sorry for not clarifying, I said I got it all as in I could understand what you where saying, but not exactly what you meant, I could relate somewhat. It is my fault for clarifying myself, but I will not keep you from your decision. I have to agree with you because you probably know me better than I know my self in the koi world.
you are right bob, I do have the munchies, but am I ready to deal with it, I wish, but from what I understand you think I am not.
I am very Honored to have had you teach me.

[Bob Winkler]

nicely said Larry. Thnx

Arigato Gozaimasu Seito. Till another time then.

[lildude]

Quote: Originally Posted by Bob Winkler nicely said Larry. Thnx Arigato Gozaimasu Seito. Till another time then.

Hopefully..