| Jumbo
Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Colorado, USA Posts: 887
| Ok… I have a few minutes….You have described your water change regimen, and a little more, but please indulge me as we narrow the focus a moment…You still haven't clarified, in my mind, what perfect, or even very very good water is, to you. As I have mentioned before, Keeping and appreciating koi can be a sliding scale for "us", the hopelessly afflicted.  All parts of it. What used to be a mind bending kohaku a few years ago, maybe now you wouldn't look twice at. Same with many aspects of koi, water quality included. And while water quality absolutely counts big, it is not everything. My friend Steve Childers likes to say "It is a system". There are certainly parameters that are consistent in what some learned people would consider as great or "ideal" ponds and are also measurable. What are your parameters? Of the water itself, but also what are the pond and filtration like? These things are not unrelated. pH, GH, O2 level, etc etc. An interesting, but potentially important thing to include are the same values of your incoming makeup water and after it sits for one day. B4 adding it to your pond. You may, or may not, be surprised by what that tells you. A general description will suffice, but the addition of pictures would be even better. Also, how long your pond has been running, and what koi you have in it… sizes, ages, breeders, source, etc. What “types” have done the best in your pond… You will see the point of my questions later…Wax on, Wax Off Grasshoppa… And now, for your first lesson in Kohaku…..(Insert at this point a picture of Bob in a Dunce cap rapping the chalkboard  ) Here are a series of posts gleaned from the NI BBS by some people I hold in high esteem for their koi knowledge and more in the koi world… Jim Reilly, Ray Jordan, and "the Great One" Peter Waddington.  I use the word "gleaned" as that describes my feeling of mining the "gems" from their posts...And they are not all evident at the first reading, as you might imagine. I hope they will not mind me reposting this. kohaku lines- an early history Posted by James P on 10/14/2005, 2:44 am
User logged in as: JR 64.12.116.11 An Interesting time line for kohaku kichi among us— 1804- 1829- ( Bunka and Bunsei periods) the first red and white koi were produced from a mutation of a black carp. It produced the Hookazuki (a koi with red cheeks). During this period white koi were crossed with hookazuki and higoi to produce Hara Aka ( red bellied koi). Around this same time the Hoo Aka and Era Hi were also produced (white koi with red cheeks). 1830- 1843 ( Tenpo period) produced the menkaburi type ( red headed white koi) and the Zukinkaburin type ( red forehead). Additionally, the kuchibeni type ( red lips) and the Sarasa type ( red spots on back) appeared. By the 1880s kohaku-like fish were being bred regularly in Yamakoshi and improvement was steady. In 1888 a man by the name of Gosuke ( Kunizo Hiroi) crossed a Hachi Hi type with a Sakura Kana type ( cherry blossom pattern) and these offspring and their future generations are considered to be the beginning of modern kohaku. If fact, these fish became the foundation stock or contributing stock for Tomoin, Buketa, yagozen and Monjiro lines. As Paul Harvey would say “ now you know, the rest of the story” Interesting..........but................. Posted by Waddy on 10/14/2005, 11:17 am, in reply to "kohaku lines- an early history"
User logged in as: Waddy 195.93.21.1 In 1888 Gosuke did produce Kohaku which later went on to be used as parent Koi for the lines mentioned. However some 51 years later along came World War 2 when all able-bodied Japanese males were conscripted to fight for their country. Knowing well, the winter climate in Yamakoshi area I find it hard to believe that the women or old folk remaining in the area could have kept any parent stocks alive for them to be used again after the menfolk had returned from battle. After having conversed with many Japanese breeders on this subject they all tend to agree that today's bloodlines of Kohaku (and all other varieties for that matter) originated from those produced after 1945. Looking back to my first visit to the area in 1977 I do remember being astonished at the fantastic quality and size of the stocks on display at most of the outlets but, on reflection, that was only because of the very low quality of the junk Koi which were available at very few outlets in the UK at that time. If I compare the quality of the stocks produced in 1977 with the quality of the stocks produced today then the 1977 Japanese stocks would have to be classed as junk! And that is only as recently as 28 years ago. Returning again to the pre-war years it also has to be remembered that all mud ponds had to be manually excavated by shovel; the outdoor concrete holding ponds were tiny; there was no filtration - just a trickle of water feeding and overflowing these concrete tanks; there was no formalin, malachite green or potassium permanganate; aeration was unheard of and any movement of Koi was by wooden bowl. Most importantly there were no indoor heated facilities whereby Koi could safely spend the time sheltering from the harsh, outdoor winter months. Even as recently as the early 1980's many thousands of Koi were lost due to the harshness of the Niigata winters - in those days 11 month-old tosai were lucky to be 3" long - nowadays it is common to see these at 10" long! It is true that the masters of the 19th. Century did prove that coloured carp could be produced and these same masters gave momentum to other, younger masters to continue with their discoveries. However, I would seriously doubt that any Koi produced today could be traced back to any lineage produced before the late 1940's. Excuse me for repeating myself again but the humble vinyl bag invented in the early 1960's brought volume Nishikigoi to the Japanese public and it was about this time that many mountain rice farmers decided to become Koi breeders instead - Marusyo; Shintaro; Marusada; Kazuto; Yagenji; Seitaro etc. etc. In truth, producing Nishikigoi is a relatively modern business! Re: Interesting..........but................. Posted by James P on 10/14/2005, 12:16 pm, in reply to "Interesting..........but................."
User logged in as: JR 64.12.116.6 Great post Waddy and wonderful to see you have come out of retirement to treat us to some of the great one's insights and observations! Pure gems!But Waddy, the folks in 1945 had to get their breeding stock from somewhere! I mean, they needed a male and female if I understand my high school biology and my grammar school yard talks? There were many breeding red and white fish before the war in the Niigata pref. so I would assume they started from a practical point??? By the way, here's a picture of the winning kohaku at the first ALL Japan Show ( fall of 1969). I'll give you $150 for HIM! LOLs Welcome back Peter JR The post-war years Posted by Waddy on 10/14/2005, 1:59 pm, in reply to "Re: Interesting..........but................."
User logged in as: Waddy 195.93.21.1 Straight after World War 2 the carp farmers of Yamakoshi continued to breed Magoi for food purposes some also experimented in producing coloured carp (Hirogoi). The Magoi were harvested from the reservoirs that fed the rice paddies when they were 3"-4" long (6 months old) - they were then preserved in salt and sold locally. This provided the locals with a winter supply of fish to eat at a time of the year when the depth of snow prevented journeys to the coast to purchase fresh fish. Any coloured carp produced were kept by the farmers but were not eaten. Food fish dealers from other areas of Japan heard of the salted Magoi from Yamakoshi and made regular visits in order to purchase surplus production for sale in their stores. During their visits to the area they also saw coloured carp at some outlets. Some of these food fish dealers decided to purchase some coloured carp and transported them in their trucks inside wooden bowls back to their premises and offered them for sale as a new addition to those with existing garden goldfish ponds. In those days coloured carp were priced by size only - variety, sex and quality did not matter. It took several years before these coloured carp became well known to 'those-in-the-know' in many areas of Japan and in this time the Yamakoshi breeders had realised that there was more profit to be had by producing Hirogoi rather than Magoi. Even by the mid-1950's few Japanese had seen Hirogoi until the food fish dealers started to promote them in their own areas. (Megumi Yoshida's father was responsible in promoting them in Tokyo and Konishi was responsible in promoting them in Hiroshima.) What happened next was an explosion of people in many other areas of Japan who wished to become breeders of Hirogoi and soon these newcomers started making regular visits to Yamakoshi in order to find suitable parent stocks. At first transportation was by train using leaking wooden containers which had to be topped-up at every stop - many Hirogoi were lost initially but some made it to their final destinations. As soon as the vinyl bag/pure oxygen method was discovered it became possible to transport live Hirogoi to any part of Japan. In the early 1960's Uedera in Hiroshima purchased Niigata 'Dia' parent stocks (those with random reflective scales) and went on to succesfully produce the first true Gin Rin Koi. Also in this time Hiroji Sakai (Hiroshima) was one of Yamamatsu's best customers! The 1960's was a decade whereby breeders and brokers from all parts of Japan visited Yamakoshi during the October harvest periods in order to buy parent stocks from the mountainside breeders. Soon 'Nishikigoi' - (Don't know exactly when this term was first used) farms were set up in many other areas of Japan - Kyushu; Hiroshima; Shikoku; Gifu; Isawa; Nagoya; Kyoto - the list goes on. Even in the 1970's including my first trip in '77 many Yamakoshi breeders gave 'first pick of their harvest' to a certain 'good broker/breeder' customer whereas today it's more of a 'first come, first served' basis. Even if the subject of bloodlines and breeders is enshrouded in the mists of time one thing remains a fact and that is despite the areas of Japan producing Nishikigoi today ALL the parents originated in Yamakoshi, Niigata. And Jim, it is said that a Mr. Satoru Hoshino in Ojiya City still has male & female Gosuke Kohaku.................but......do we really know if this is the truth? Waddy. Re: Interesting..........but................. Posted by Ray Jordan on 10/14/2005, 1:16 pm, in reply to "Re: Interesting..........but................."
User logged in as: rayjordan 69.152.227.162 During WWII the Japanese Army ordered all colored carp be turned over to them to help feed the troops. Some parent stocks were instead taken to shinto shrines in the area and turned over to the shinto priests to protect in temple ponds. Some of the shinto priests were also koi hobbyists and even koi breeders. After the war some of these koi were quietly reclaimed from the shinto temples and koi breeding began again. The early red & white colored carp referred to by JR were the orginal genetic pool that modern koi sprang from. Brady refers to only 4-5 generations necessary to progress from a magoi X Modern Koi crossing to show quality specimens. This rapid progress is possible because the % of modern koi genes occurs from only the orginal cross being magoi. i.e, Magoi X Koi = 50% magoi then offspring X koi = 25% magoi etc. by 5th generation only about 3% magoi genes remaining because modern koi are crossed with each generation of hybrid magoi X Koi. This is quite differnt than starting with two magoi parents and progressing to modern koi genetics. 1st All Japan Show GC was owned by Mits Nakamura who lived in Hawaii and shiped his koi back to Japan for the 1st AJS. Additional Note: Just learned that a old home movie film exists of the 1st All Japan Show taken by Mits. Bob Finnegan is working to have it restored and coverted to DVD. Would love to see if it can be restored. Re: Interesting..........but................. Posted by Ray Jordan on 10/14/2005, 8:51 pm, in reply to "Re: Interesting..........but................."
User logged in as: rayjordan 69.152.227.162 I asked Megumi Yoshida to assist me with a lot of my koi history research and he asked some of the oldest koi breeders still alive in the Niigata area a long list of questions. Megumi indicated that the elders did not like to talk about the war because it was such a difficult time for all. It was difficult to get anyone to admit to not obeying a order from the army which carried the authority of the emperior. I get the feeling a lot of the elder koi breeders were some pretty colorful rascals. I mean no disrespect in saying this at all. I admire their creativity, boldness and business accumen. As you know the selling of colored carp was banned for awhile in the early 1900's because of the huge prices some of these early breakthrough colored carp commanded and some disputes that resulted. Colored Carp farmers came to Ojita town after harvest with their pockets stuffed with money and they had some pretty grand parties I am told. I would have loved to been there. some interesting follow up trivia Posted by James P on 10/15/2005, 9:22 am, in reply to "Great info!"
User logged in as: JR 205.188.116.6 Takeshi Seki was 104 years old at the time of the interview--- Seki says that the people of yamakoshi village were primarily rice farmes but many dabbled in koi breeding and brokering for at least four generations. If you had water- you had koi he said. If you were near the river or a river passed by your house, you kept koi in it. A family could not save face without keeping koi according to the old man. Goroji Sato was 98 years old at the time of the interview---- he sold his first koi at age 13. He has been trading koi since the 1920s. many of his customers were in Hiroshima and he sent many fish to that region right after the war. Jirosuke kawakami ( 84 years old) is a third generation koi broker and breeder. He recalls 'koi union' meetings at the local school during the Taisho era. He also sold many koi to the breeders and growers in Hiroshima in the early 1940s. He says " he sold many fish to the Hiroshima breeders but once the war broke out, there was no more business. He had fish in the ponds but no customers/business" Best story of all---- Kawakami San was active in the very early village koi shows. Two or three villages would get together and put on a show at the local school yard. They would lay down ladders and place the transfer tanks on them ( OKI). There was no aeration then! So they would have every child in the village swirl sticks around in the water to keep the fish alive during the show! What a sight that must have been! JR From the post-war years to today. Posted by Waddy on 10/15/2005, 12:59 pm, in reply to "some interesting follow up trivia"
User logged in as: Waddy 195.93.21.1 It was not until the early 1960's that Nishikigoi really took of in Japan in any real numbers. The advent of the vinyl bag and pure oxygen enabled brokers from all parts of Japan to visit Yamakoshi in the autumn and transport Koi back to their shops for re-sale. Their customers back then were those who collected 'one in each colour' for their garden ponds, popular varieties were Doitsu Yamabuki Hariwake; Bekko; Yamatonishiki; Kin Ki Utsuri; Asagi and Shusui etc. The demand for any kind of Koi became high and the breeders could sell all their production very easily, price was based then on size alone - the largest Koi demanded the highest price. Some breeders would sell their parent Koi in autumn rather than try to keep them alive in the Yamakoshi winter knowing they could easily buy more parents in the following spring from Izumiya - bloodline was not so important back then! In those days there were no books on Koi and Koi keeping, there were no Koi clubs nor were there any Koi shows. The late Dr. Takeo Kuroki brought out his first book on Koi in 1965 and local Koi clubs started to surface in the late 1960's. It is said that one enthusiast purchased 100 tosai Kohaku from a Niigata breeder for 500yen each (then 50p or $1.00) and one later went on to take Supreme Champion at the All-Japan show! By the late 1960's many enthusiasts were experimenting with early forms of filtration whilst many others were observing which type of Koi were worth buying and which were not. The hobby grew at an alarming rate as more and more enthusiasts came into the hobby and with the numbers along came more experience through practical learnings. By the early 1970's many 'DO'S & DON'TS' started to be whispered:- DON'T buy male Koi - female Koi develop a far better body shape. DON'T buy Koi with 'red from purple' pigment as these Koi will lose their beni in later years, Instead DO buy Koi with 'red from orange' as these Koi will produce good pigmentation in adult years. DO filter your pond water. DO provide extra aeration in summer. DO look at skin quality and body shape when selecting your Koi. DON'T buy any Koi with signs of deformity. DO try and find small Koi which will become much better as they grow. As a result, and as the hobby grew, Koi purchases became far more selective and brokers discovered that they could not sell all their stocks as they had done before. The groundswell of voices from their customers demanded more good Kohaku, Sanke and Showa varieties and less accent on metallic or Kawarimono varieties. (Koi shows were now on the scene and only Go-Sanke could be judged for Supreme Champion award.) The brokers relayed their customers demands to the breeders who soon realised that the heady days of high volume-production were soon to come to an end and a new era of 'quality' as opposed to 'quantity' was desired. Some breeders adapted and concentrated on parent stocks and bloodlines whilst others continued to breed as before but found their production far more difficult to sell. It was around this time when the word 'TATEGOI' came to the fore as a direct result of the demands of enthusiasts to the breeders - Koi prices escalated accordingly and the names of the actual breeders became far more important to the enthusiast. As the hobby progressed in Japan it became more common for enthusiasts to make the pilgrimage to Yamakoshi in autumn to buy direct from the breeders rather than from their local outlets. By the time the late 1970's came around one could witness hundreds of Koi enthusiasts scouring the mountainsides to find their own tategoi. This status quo remained the same for another decade or so which takes us to the late 1980's when a significant export market for Nishikigoi had developed. This was usually handled by Japanese exporters - Kamihata; Hara; Tani; Far East Enterprises etc. etc. and the breeders found a new outlet for their production of tateshita. Around the mid '90's we saw a total change in the Yamakoshi mountainsides in autumn. Visiting Japanese enthusiasts diminished in numbers only to be replaced with many overseas dealers and collectors from the UK; USA; Holland; Belgium; Germany; South Africa; S.E. Asia and the like. The demands from many of these buyers were for less common varieties and several breeders have met these demands by producing Chagoi; Soragoi; Ochibashigure; Asagi; Shusui; Kin Ki Utsuri; Hi Utsuri etc.etc. Despite last years earthquake which rocked Yamakoshi to the core the Nishikigoi breeders have shown their resilience in coping with the disaster and have continued to breed their Koi - most of them are still in the business of trying to produce the best Koi in the world! To those 'Koi Kichi' who have not yet visited Yamakoshi - do try to make it some day - it's the most favourite and fascinating area in the world for me. Rambling over, Waddy. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- You were hoping maybe I would say it was just a red and white carp with good skin and pretty colors?  I wish it were so simple.... Actually, not at all. I love the layers...
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Best regards,
Bob Winkler
My opinions are my best interpretation of my experiences. They are not set in stone as I intend to always be a student of life. And Koi.  |
10-06-2006
Quote: 
, I need to choose my words my carefully in this new found art.
Wonderful Stuff BobW 
, and somehow it has a very familiar ring to it.
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