Learning Nishikigoi

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[quote=keokoi;63289]

Quote: Originally Posted by lilhelper Haha well if that is in japan, its called SHINKANSEN quote] You are correct! It is Shinkansen which is run by the JR (Japan Railway) group which runs the majority of the Railways in Japan.. The Train pic is of the Joetsu Shinkansen (train name Max-Toki)in Omiya station or Eki (Bonsai Capital of Japan) and headed to Niigata. Next Stop Nagaoka near koi Mecca... or since we are being technical next stop Kumagaya Station.

Ah so it is.

[lildude]

You people arent telling me what JR really is......First person says James Riley, then you say Japan Railways..........

[Bob Winkler]

LMAO Joe, et al ....

This is the one and only JR that I meant, though if you play detective and read who posted the posts with all the info, it is often.......JR (James P Reilly, aka the illustrious John Smith on here sometimes)

Remember Seito.... many on here are smart arses....always look out for those....they are also often the ones fun to have a drink and hang out with too, so that is sometimes why we look out for them...

There is a Judge in the room?? Acckk!! where??!! (Looks around wild eyed) Really, though it is just a title, and while I am proud to be a member of the Certified (or is that certifiable? ) AKCA Judges, it is the study and learning of koi that is the real goal and that effort and the knowledge gained the things to truely respect.Thank you for the kind comment though, but I could also be full of BS...Keep your open and vigilent mind, and respect, but decide for yourself what is true. No matter who says it. (or is that whom? it must be late ...LOL) Please always make sure of your facts before spouting some of your new found wisdom. And always allow for the other person(s) to save face. Wisdom and knowledge are usually a result of our experiences, and one person's experiences are different from the next. That may sound simple, but each must do what works for them.

An answer for one of your last questions b4 I go to sleep...As you probably know, many people are of the opinion that Longfins are not koi. I am of that group, but must confess I own a decent gin rin long fin sanke that resides in a friends pond for the last 4 years now. So maybe technically it is no longer mine. If you accept that Long fins are not koi as truth, then in your example you still do not have a koi at the end of your breeding "line". If we breed a human with a gorilla, and then back with humans for mulitple generations, at what point is the descendent back to the original species? Have exactly the same chromosome set? Get my point? Maybe we can't tell the difference by the way it looks on the outside, but still not exactly the same. If we have to split hairs somewhere, that is where it splits for me.

Hard to add much to JR's post on Conformation. Very complete. I have drawings but not enough pictures of poor conformation. Or actually, since really poor conformation is easy to differentiate, I am looking more for mediocre conformation pix and great to perfect examples to illustrate his points... But I am working on it and should have some good examples from the archives pulled together soon... An Example---Which of these kohaku has the better conformation? Price, age, and size were close to the same. Sorry the pictures are not in the same angle, I just love the pic of guess which one I have another at a better angle that will be posted later on.

Until tomorrow

[lildude]

Quote: Originally Posted by Bob Winkler LMAO Joe, et al .... This is the one and only JR that I meant, though if you play detective and read who posted the posts with all the info, it is often.......JR (James P Reilly, aka the illustrious John Smith on here sometimes) Remember Seito.... many on here are smart arses....always look out for those....they are also often the ones fun to have a drink and hang out with too, so that is sometimes why we look out for them... There is a Judge in the room?? Acckk!! where??!! (Looks around wild eyed) Really, though it is just a title, and while I am proud to be a member of the Certified (or is that certifiable? ) AKCA Judges, it is the study and learning of koi that is the real goal and that effort and the knowledge gained the things to truely respect.Thank you for the kind comment though, but I could also be full of BS...Keep your open and vigilent mind, and respect, but decide for yourself what is true. No matter who says it. (or is that whom? it must be late ...LOL) Please always make sure of your facts before spouting some of your new found wisdom. And always allow for the other person(s) to save face. Wisdom and knowledge are usually a result of our experiences, and one person's experiences are different from the next. That may sound simple, but each must do what works for them. An answer for one of your last questions b4 I go to sleep...As you probably know, many people are of the opinion that Longfins are not koi. I am of that group, but must confess I own a decent gin rin long fin sanke that resides in a friends pond for the last 4 years now. So maybe technically it is no longer mine. If you accept that Long fins are not koi as truth, then in your example you still do not have a koi at the end of your breeding "line". If we breed a human with a gorilla, and then back with humans for mulitple generations, at what point is the descendent back to the original species? Have exactly the same chromosome set? Get my point? Maybe we can't tell the difference by the way it looks on the outside, but still not exactly the same. If we have to split hairs somewhere, that is where it splits for me. Hard to add much to JR's post on Conformation. Very complete. I have drawings but not enough pictures of poor conformation. Or actually, since really poor conformation is easy to differentiate, I am looking more for mediocre conformation pix and great to perfect examples to illustrate his points... But I am working on it and should have some good examples from the archives pulled together soon... An Example---Which of these kohaku has the better conformation? Price, age, and size were close to the same. Sorry the pictures are not in the same angle, I just love the pic of guess which one I have another at a better angle that will be posted later on. Until tomorrow

Hmm I should wait a couple of years b4 I start to blurt things out. Afterall I do not have much experience in this department, and it is going to take a while to get it.
Hmmm but sensei, we cant breed a gorilla with a Human, but we can breed a koi with a butterfly koi.
This is a hard thing to figure out. I think butterfly koi should have their own class to be judged in, in the AJKS. It only makes sense. Just because they are of different "SPECIES" according to the breeders of japan, doesnt mean they should not be appreciated.

[PapaBear]

The longfin debate will go on for quite some time to come, so you may as well settle in for the ride . They are a hybrid to be appreciated by many, but as a hybrid they do have to stand alone... for the time being on the sidelines. Doitsugoi had to earn a place at the table, but their unique scale patterns appearance does not take anything away from their overall body conformation. If you look closely at most longfins you will see more than a difference in fins. I've noticed that they tend to be a bit pot bellied with skinny tailtubes as well, which takes away from their look as compared to traditional Koi. In head to head competition body conformation would knock them out before the real competition even began.
It may well be that one day they will have a seperate place in the competetive arena, but it will require setting up a judging standard more in keeping with goldfish than Koi IMHO.

[lildude]

Quote: Originally Posted by PapaBear The longfin debate will go on for quite some time to come, so you may as well settle in for the ride . They are a hybrid to be appreciated by many, but as a hybrid they do have to stand alone... for the time being on the sidelines. Doitsugoi had to earn a place at the table, but their unique scale patterns appearance does not take anything away from their overall body conformation. If you look closely at most longfins you will see more than a difference in fins. I've noticed that they tend to be a bit pot bellied with skinny tailtubes as well, which takes away from their look as compared to traditional Koi. In head to head competition body conformation would knock them out before the real competition even began. It may well be that one day they will have a seperate place in the competetive arena, but it will require setting up a judging standard more in keeping with goldfish than Koi IMHO.

Well I know that day will come when they will have their own GC section of the show.

[Bob Winkler]

Upon further checking of my notes, I was wrong about size and age of the two kohaku's in my last post. The 1st kohaku was 4 years old and ~ 72cm while the 2nd kohaku was a bit over 80 cm and 6 years old. But the point I was trying to make was about conformation ideals for each age. The pictures show my point somewhat, IMHO.

Blurting out stuff is ok, but stating things as "gospel" is not how I would suggest you say things. Asking questions and saying things in a respectful way that does not challenge others is a better way. That was my lesson for you. It DOES take a while to get the experience, but time and effort is the only way to get it. You seem a bit less enthusiastic, which is the last thing I want to happen for you.

Test Tube Babies. Yes we can (probably) breed a gorilla to a human. The gene set is very similar. If I am not mistaken, we are only one chromosome different. Or is that with Chimpanzees? And this is exactly what I mean by stating facts. Especially in an open forum, one does not know whom one is challenging all the time. For example, do you know what my major was in college? Human Biology. One of the required classes went into this very thing. Gorillas to Human cross breeding. I am quite sure there are others who know more than I on pretty much every subject one could post on here. So it is not me necessarily, but everyone on the internet and more that we shoudl worry about "challenging", or at the least offending. Respect Grasshoppa.
But let's not get caught up in debating that. The example is similar to koi and long fins.

There is a class for long fins in most shows in the USA, if not the world. The AKCA judges are coming up with standards for them at our shows. This was a presentation at the last AKCA seminar in June. So it is coming here, due to Long fins popularity. IMHO, it is ok to think the things you are saying, but how you say them comes across pretty strong to me. Just because you are "young" in the hobby does not mean that you are wrong. But this hobby is built upon respect for those who have gone b4 you, and that respect has been earned.
Please come to terms with whether you believe koi and "butterfly koi" are the same species. It seems you may have agreed they are different "species" by what you posted. Which does not belong in the same paragraph as whether they should be appreciated. Of course they should. This is a different thing then "class", btw. If I were to give you a hint. But, I believe the AJKS stands for All Japan KOI Show. Please say that slowly to your self and then the statement you made " I think butterfly koi should have their own class to be judged in, in the AJKS."


Please study what is and why, before trying to change them

[lildude]

Quote: Originally Posted by Bob Winkler Upon further checking of my notes, I was wrong about size and age of the two kohaku's in my last post. The 1st kohaku was 4 years old and ~ 72cm while the 2nd kohaku was a bit over 80 cm and 6 years old. But the point I was trying to make was about conformation ideals for each age. The pictures show my point somewhat, IMHO. Blurting out stuff is ok, but stating things as "gospel" is not how I would suggest you say things. Asking questions and saying things in a respectful way that does not challenge others is another. That was my lesson for you. It DOES take a while to get the experience, but time and effort is the only way to get it. You seem a bit less enthusiastic, which is the last thing I want to happen for you. Test Tube Babies. Yes we can (probably) breed a gorilla to a human. The gene set is very similar. If I am not mistaken, we are only one chromosome different. Or is that with Chimpanzees? And this is exactly what I mean by stating facts. Especially in an open forum, one does not know whom one is challenging all the time. For example, do you know what my major was in college? Human Biology. One of the required classes went into this very thing. Gorillas to Human cross breeding. I am quite sure there are others who know more than I on pretty much every subject one could post on here. So it is not me necessarily, but everyone on the internet and more that we shoudl worry about "challenging", or at the least offending. Respect Grasshoppa. But let's not get caught up in debating that. The example is similar to koi and long fins. There is a class for long fins in most shows in the USA, if not the world. The AKCA judges are coming up with standards for them at our shows. This was a presentation at the last AKCA seminar in June. So it is coming here, due to Long fins popularity. IMHO, it is ok to think the things you are saying, but how you say them comes across pretty strong to me. Just because you are "young" in the hobby does not mean that you are wrong. But this hobby is built upon respect for those who have gone b4 you, and that respect has been earned. Please come to terms with whether you believe koi and "butterfly koi" are the same species. It seems you may have agreed they are different "species" by what you posted. Which does not belong in the same paragraph as whether they should be appreciated. Of course they should. This is a different thing then "class", btw. If I were to give you a hint. But, I believe the AJKS stands for All Japan KOI Show. Please say that slowly to your self and then the statement you made " think butterfly koi should have their own class to be judged in, in the AJKS." Please study what is and why, before trying to change them

Hahaha, AJKS, It should be AJBKS, which I dont think will work.
Hmmm I am sorry if I have offended anyone, man now I feel really bad..
almost like I dont deserve to be in anyone presence, and Im not really qualified to learn anymore. Man, my own Hype about koi got me into trouble...

[Russell Peters]

Quote: Originally Posted by lilhelper Hahaha, AJKS, It should be AJBKS, which I dont think will work. Hmmm I am sorry if I have offended anyone, man now I feel really bad.. almost like I dont deserve to be in anyone presence, and Im not really qualified to learn anymore. Man, my own Hype about koi got me into trouble...

Hey lildude,
Don't worry, you are doing all right! Don't get bent.

[PapaBear]

Quote: Originally Posted by lilhelper Hahaha, AJKS, It should be AJBKS, which I dont think will work. Hmmm I am sorry if I have offended anyone, man now I feel really bad.. almost like I dont deserve to be in anyone presence, and Im not really qualified to learn anymore. Man, my own Hype about koi got me into trouble...

Trouble??? What trouble? You are learning about more than Koi here lil'dude . Your sensei is teaching you about life as well... appreciating them together makes both much better. Do you deserve to be in the presence of your teachers??? Of course you do! You were invited Pride (aka "false humility") would decline the invitation, but a humble spirit gratefully accepts it grasshoppa'