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Old 10-31-2006   #21 (permalink)
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this is very true. I think amikacin shot carry a high risk of killing the fish and should only use as last resort. thanks!

Steve
very wise!!!
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Old 10-31-2006   #22 (permalink)
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Great! I am going to bring the fish into the QT tank tonight and slowing bring the water temp up. let see how it goes in couple of days. thank you Auntie Sue.

Steve

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Yes Steve, warmer water is better for healing. Koi are cold blooded creatures and take on the temp of the water around them. Colder water shuts down their immune system so likewise warmer water increases their ability to fight off infection. Antibiotics do not work in colder water...don't waste your money trying it in 60 degree water. It really won't do much good an in the case of amikacin, you will likely hurt the liver as well. I would strongly encourage you to stay away from Amakacin right now. This antibiotic is a "hammer" which does not seem to be warrented here. Baytril if you insist on using something...perhaps at 1 1/2 times the suggested dose for this size fish won't hurt.
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Old 10-31-2006   #23 (permalink)
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Great, keep us posted on how it goes!!! Keep a close eye on her now!! Warmer water also will excellerate anything else going on as well. Watch your water chemistry as well.
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Old 10-31-2006   #24 (permalink)
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Using Topicals Effectively

When using topical antiseptics, we need to consider a couple things in order to select the right one for the job and for the fish:

1. How deep and wide is the wound?? This is particularly important because we need to do everything we can possibly do to avoid scarring, especially on show-quality fish. The deeper and wider the wound, the more chance the fish surface tissue is going to exhibit significant scarring.

2. Is the fish healing already? Unlike mammals that heal from the inside out, fish heal from the outside-in. As a fish wound starts to heal, you will see a small opaque membrane form over the wound. This is a very thin membrane designed more to protect the wound than to offer cell reconstruction. But once we see this membrane form, we absolutely cannot disturb it with topical applications, etc.

3. How aggressive do we need to be in treating the wound? If you are using a properly selected injectable antibiotic, then chances are that you do not need to be aggressive in treating the wound topically. Of course, it is always important to ensure that the fish's immune system is running at peak performance by removing ALL stressors including parasites, poor water, etc. Without doing this, the fish will never have a chance to heal itself. Oh.. keep in mind that even with all of the antibiotics (in all forms), the trick to healing a wounded koi is to let it heal itself. Proper use of antibiotics and antiseptics thus becomes critical in getting the fish to fix itself.

Now let's look at topical antiseptics. Below is a list of common topicals that we use in the koi hobby and some good and bad points about each:

1. Potassium permanganate paste. PP paste is a mainstay as a topical antiseptic and probably exhibits the best overall results especially against BOTH bacterial and parasites. BUT.. it has serious downsides that need to be considered before using it on your fish. PP is an indiscriminate killer and this includes the ability to destroy the marginal tissue around the wound site. While you will get an excellent antiseptic and anti-parasite effect, you also increase the chance of destroying viable tissue and by doing so increase the potential for scarring.

2. Betadyne and iodine. First we need to understand that betadyne and iodine are not the same thing. Sure, they are both effective topical antiseptics but they work in significantly different ways. Iodine is the more powerful of the two and works virtually on-contact. This makes it effective as a topical since we need immediate effect before the fish is placed back in the water. But unlike PP, iodine is more targeted to the bacteria and less caustic to the surrounding tissue. Where people make mistakes with iodine is using it when the wound healing membrane is intact, thus destroying the seal. Iodine should be used as a swab with a q-tip and worked up and under the scales surrounding the wound. It is not effective against parasites. An important point to remember if you are dealing with an ulcer induced by a parasite attack.

Betadyne is not effective on fish. And the reason is that betadyne is slower to react to the bacteria and so it needs to be on the affected tissue for a longer period of time. Hard to do when the fish has to be back in the water quickly. This is why it is used as a surgical scrub. While you might see some level of contact effectiveness, the better choice by far is iodine.

3. Topical antibiotic creams and ointments. There are alot of these available OTC and some are more effective than others. When selecting one, the primary consideration is what bacteria is the topical effective against? We know that the primary pathogenic bacteria in open koi wounds is aeromonas/pseudomonas. A close second, especially in mouth rot cases is flexobacter columnaris. And unless you have the ability to culture the bacteria for ID, the best we can do is make a really good and educated guess that the pathogen is aeromomas/pseudomonas. And this is actually a good way to think as we will be right 90% + times. However, if you are at the local drug store looking for a "human" topical, ask the Pharmacist which of the topicals is quinoline-based. And tell him it is for aeromonas/pseudmonas..not only will be impressed, but will get you a suitable OTC human topical.

Of course the other consideration is how long will a topical stay on the fish. There are all kinds of "fish bandages" out there and some are even effective for awhile IF used and applied properly. But the rate of success with topical creams and ointments is fairly low. However, there are a couple of these topicals that are targeted specifically for koi wounds. The one I like is Debride. I had the opportunity to be part of the field testing for Debride before it came to market and I know it works when used properly and dilligently. Debride exhibits enough contact effectiveness to help reduce pathogen numbers at the wound site and will stick on the fish for sometime (but not long enough to be really effective). Without clinical evidence, my experience is that using Debride helped reduce scarring.

But no matter what you have in your koi medicine cabinet, the very first step you need to make is carefully and accurately assessing the wound site and determining the proximate cause of the problem (i.e, parasites, physical wound, etc) as this will help you determine the best course of action. Also, the location of the wound on the fish may be a key factor in determining what med to use as well since deep tissue wounds, such as along the dorsal and caudal areas need to be treated differently than thin tissue wounds along the head and mouth region. PP paste used on a head wound or mouth wound can cause collateral tissue damage and enhance any scarring.

One of the tricks I really like to use on show-quality fish where scarring is going to be a factor, is to use iodine swab on the first pass.... blot dry and then apply Debride to the wound. This provides immediate contact antiseptic action with the iodine and the longer lasting, penetration ability of Debride.

Hope this helps...

REC
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Old 11-01-2006   #25 (permalink)
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Good post REC.
Like to see the consideration of the scales in show fish. In the old days, when saving the fish was all that was on anyone's mind, the scales were plucked to get at the dead or decaying tissue below. Yikes!
If gotten to early, and supported by antibiotic injection and the reversal of the 'fuel' to the infection ( water conditions or parasites) I think almost all scales can be saved around the infection site. Unfortunately due to the way aeromonas spreads once through the epidermis and in the demis layer, a few scale pockets might get infected before the hobbyist takes action.
So when the fish is 'under' a Q-tip dipped in betadine followed by a water proof antibiotic ( also on a Qtip) must be GENTLY inserted deep into the scale pocket to first remove dead skin and then act as an antibiotic packing. Do remember that at this point in an infection the scale might be loose ( due to decayed skin or just swelling in reaction to the infection). So be very very gentle! You will notice that as healing begins the scales will tighten up at the base and it will not be as easy to get antibiotic oinment in a second or third time- which is a good thing ! JR
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Old 11-01-2006   #26 (permalink)
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thank you for the details, REC!

the wound of this fish is a about 1/2 x 3/4 inch max. the wound is shallow.

> 2. Betadyne and iodine.

I was under impression that betadine and iodine are the same except that betadine is a brand name. I look up after reading your post and found these definitions. I agreed. iodine is a better choice.

Betadine is a brand name of povidone-iodine:
a complex of iodine and polyvinylpyrrolidone that has broad-spectrum antimicrobial activity: used as an antiseptic.



iodine: 1. A lustrous, grayish-black, corrosive, poisonous halogen element having radioactive isotopes, especially I 131, used as a medical tracer and in thyroid disease diagnosis and therapy. Iodine compounds are used as germicides, antiseptics, and dyes. 2. A liquid containing iodine dissolved in ethyl alcohol, used as an antiseptic for wounds.

Steve
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Old 11-01-2006   #27 (permalink)
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steve,
I am mr el-cheapo, I use iodine + extra strength triple anti-biotic oinment, all from local drug joins.

Maybe we show make REC's posting sticky and keep it somewhere.

BTW, use iodine once, and only once.

good luck

stan
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Old 11-01-2006   #28 (permalink)
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Stan,

>BTW, use iodine once, and only once

this is a very important piece of info. I was wondering what's the frequency of treatment. once is the magic number than. thanks!

Steve



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steve,
I am mr el-cheapo, I use iodine + extra strength triple anti-biotic oinment, all from local drug joins.

Maybe we show make REC's posting sticky and keep it somewhere.

BTW, use iodine once, and only once.

good luck

stan
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Old 11-01-2006   #29 (permalink)
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Stan,

You have a good protocol there and in fact, the triple antibiotic ointments (neomycin, bacitracin, and polymyxin B sulfate.. the usual suspects) together cover such a broad specturm of gram negative bacteria that indeed, the aeromonas/pseudomonas will fall into this area. This is a viable substitute when a more targeted antibiotic such as Debride cannot be used.

The number of times you perform the treatment is almost solely dependent on the fish's state of healing. If a wound seal develops after one treatment, then just one would be needed. But if the wound does not show signs of healing, do not hesitate to repeat the treatment. The caveat to all of this is that sometimes treating a fish is more stress than the treatment may be worth. And here there is no yardstick to measure this just experience and common sense.

REC
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Old 11-01-2006   #30 (permalink)
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Thank REC for pointing out the need to strike a balance 'treat' or 'no treat' (trick?). I am very bad at catching my koi, so I usually wait until I have to. I have ruined a few koi by chasing them to submission, and it was bad.

stan
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