is this ulcer???

[Steve Nguyen]

I need help ID this problem. it looks like ulcer but I am not 100% sure. the pond temp is at 60 degrees at the moment and I did a visual inspectation on the rest of the gang, they are all fine except for this one. I cleaned out the dead tissue and dried it with Kleenex before applied betadine solution directly on the wounded area. I was thinking giving it a shot of amikacin but decide to put that option on hold for now until the gurus on this board give me some suggestions on treatment. salt treatment? continue to apply betadine everyday? what's your suggestions?

My hospital tank is current running with water temp @ 77 degrees. would it be safe for me to transport this sanke from 60 degrees water into 77 degrees water? would the different temp shock or kill the fish? my hospital tank is currently treating the carp pox problem on a shusui which is almost fully recovered already.

what are my option here? keep in mind that I will be in Maui 7 days from today so please give me some feasible solution. ) I can keep the hospital tank running. it should not be a problem. I think I can ask one of my koi buddies to drop by periodically when I am out of town.

regards,

Steve

[68bruin]

Ulcer= inflammation(redness), swelling(can't tell), tissue destruction + supporation(drainage or sluffing)

From the PICTURE I would say ulcer and I would treat with amikacin. Especially on high end fish, I would like to see little or no scarring after an ulcer incident. If allowed to heal without adequate help, scarring is likely.

[xiaohuang7]

yes i agree with 68bruin (is that Don K, pres of ZNA socal?)... give it a shot, and another 2 or 3 days later. might as well disinfect the wound again at the same time.

i am not an expert... so take this with a big grain of salt -- if i were in your position, and going away for a week, i would leave it in the main 60 degree F pond after the shot, because at a 77oF things can change real fast -- hopefully for the better, but then again things can go downhill really fast and no one's home to take real action (like give a second or third shot).

a normal koi prolly wouldn't die from just the temp change, but you gotta judge from the condition of the whole fish; this is not to say such a flux in temp is good for it, b/c you'll have to return it to 60 deg later on i assume...

if i was not going on vacation, 60% of me would still want to leave it in the main pond. hope that helps...

john

[dinh]

Quote: Originally Posted by 68bruin Ulcer= inflammation(redness), swelling(can't tell), tissue destruction + supporation(drainage or sluffing) From the PICTURE I would say ulcer and I would treat with amikacin. Especially on high end fish, I would like to see little or no scarring after an ulcer incident. If allowed to heal without adequate help, scarring is likely.

I agree with 68bruin...

Steve, if you need Amikacin, let me know, will bring to the office tomorrow for you.

--Dinh

[aquitori]

The wound looks more like a bird or raccoon tried to have at the koi. Anyways, I would treat the open wound with iodine or PP....if your water is really bad then I would inject, if the water is good I wouldnt inject...Very good water usually helps heal the koi alot faster without injections. I for a scrape like that I would use a lighter injection of Baytril...

[bekko]

Not much inflamation there. Sort of looks like it is healing OK on its own - whatever it is.

-ste veh opki

[Richard Rombold]

Not an Ulcer and why treat with antibiotics in this case? It appears to be a wound that is healing or at worse stable. Sedate the fish and treat the wound. Keep the water quality high, take the pond off feed and add salt to the system. I'd use PP as a paste and then retreat in three days if needed. The trauma of an injection is simply not worth it unless you have your back up against a wall. With out properly culturing the bacteria and then testing the culture for sensitivity you are just throwing darts in the dark. One man's opinion.

[68bruin]

Culture and WAIT for results? We don't even do that with humans 99% of the time. By the time you WAIT for that to happen, things could get too far along.

To decide whose advice to follow, I would recheck the fish in 24 hrs. If "ulcer" appears worse, inject. If better, leave alone and observe carfully. If the same, make sure no raised scales around border and recheck next day.

Over the years, I've injected amikacin in many koi, almost always it just takes one injection and the ulcer appears better in 24hrs - if so, I do not reinject, just let fish continue on its own from this "jump-start" of the healing process. Amikacin is a STRONG antibiotic, and too many doses in succession (three +) is too hard on the fish, in my opinion. Follow correct dosage table carefully.

[andrewn15]

Be very careful with the amikacin shot, your koi can drop dead at anytime later due to liver damage, amikacine is a VERY STRONG anibiotic, the wound does not look bad at all, the most I'd use is Baytril since it's not as strong as amikacin, I would not even use any shot if the wound is not geting worst, just keep your water parameter good and your koi will heal itself in no time.
P.S PP paste will leave a nasty mark on the fish, scale may not grow back.

[Richard Rombold]

I didn't mean to step on any toes, and if I did I'm sorry. I have strong opinions when it comes to fish health. I never use antibiotics on the farm for several reasons. First, in my experience, they aren't necessary if you do your job properly. Secondly, I don't want my fish leaving with strains of bacteria that won't respond to an antibiotic regimen if one were needed in the future.

The natural reaction when one's pet falls ill is to do everything possible to cure it. It's emotionally satisfying to know you have done all that is possible. However, the whole process of injecting fish can cause more problems than it solves. True that your personal doctor will prescribe an antibiotic with out culturing a sample first unless there were attenuating circumstances. But, Doctors have the luxury of generally seeing the same thing day in day out and probably could diagnose you without ever visiting the office based off what is circulating around town that month. Bacteria on fish colonize open wounds, and on weak fish, in poor environments, can rapidly reproduce and widen the infection. When the infection worsens to the point that it crosses into the bloodstream you'll have to resort to antibiotics to cure the fish. Just hope you guess correctly. It's better initially to strengthen the fish and attack the bacteria while they remain on the surface. To strengthen the fish maximize the environment- raise water temperatures if possible, aerate the water, deal with the usual water quality parameters and add salt to the system. I have a simple approach to fish health. All fish are infected. What keeps fish healthy is a healthy environment.