What color should beni be to be tateshita?

[aquitori]

What color should beni be, to be tateshita? Should it be persimmon or should it be scarlet red? I know the Japanese standard is persimmon, but does it still hold true today?

[MikeM]

??? ... I think you meant tategoi, not tateshita? In any event, I don't think color is a defining trait. Maruyama Kohaku beni is not the same as Matsunosuke Sanke beni.

[JasPR]

I think that sly fox meant Tateshita!

Tateshita can either be very light orange OR deep red. Very light orange is often beni 'going away' and very deep red is color food effect in one coat type of purple/red or red/red junk beni. Often there is a third possibility, better grade beni on a typy male fish that just needs to be sold as 'God loves them so' ( he must. 'He' makes SO very many of those!)

The key to all of this is not the color shade as much as the 'nature' of the beni. Look for great luster always and signs of next years beni growth within the skin ( concentrations of color at the scale line).

Contrary to popular belief, it is not that the Japanese prefer persimmon as a color. But rather that that shade of beni ( orange/yellow or orange/orange) is most often associated with complex beni in which sheets of beni are laid down over time so that the finished product, at say age 6, is a deep orange/red that looks BOTH delicate and thick at the same time. Hoping not to get to artsy or romantic here, but it is not unlike the samurai's sword- many thin layers of metal laid one over the other during the construction process in order to create a strong finished product of great strength but also flexibility. And as it turns out- a work of art as well as function. JR

[aquitori]

I brought this out to light because I get that question all the time with hobbyist when they see me at the Koi Shop(s)...I know Maruyama has 2 different tones of beni. I was at Genki many years ago and he had brought in a shipment from Maruyama and explained that there were 2 different types of beni. The Kagura Red stood out when the Persimmon or deep orange didnt. Kevin explained that the Persimmon in time aka Sensuke would thicken and give a softer apperance to the fish. With the Kagura would tone down abit through time but still maintain that Red red apperance. To me I can live with both given that I can maintain the shiroji to a high enough level to where it is pleasing to the eye.

But to me alot of hobbyist are swaying more for that red beni. To each is his own I guess. But the folklore has always, been the Japanese perferred the persimmon...unless it is Dainichi...hahahahaha

[lildude]

Tateshita is basically a koi that was a tategoi and no longer is in the breeders eyes. Tategoi is only when a breeder see's potential

[aquitori]

Quote: Originally Posted by lilhelper Tateshita is basically a koi that was a tategoi and no longer is in the breeders eyes. Tategoi is only when a breeder see's potential

I could be wrong since everyone has their own definition of tategoi...But tategoi that leaves Japan in the breeders eyes, sold to a customer wants to take it home is now defined tateshita...JMHO

[mojo]

Quote: Originally Posted by aquitori What color should beni be, to be tateshita? Should it be persimmon or should it be scarlet red? I know the Japanese standard is persimmon, but does it still hold true today?

thank aquitori, you have brought so may interesting subject to the forum that we all enjoy very much. What kind of the red is the best? that is the question that i brought to Brett when i was at his farm couple month ago (i live 45 minutes away from his farm). he turn around and after a while of searching in his big tank have hundred of kohaku, pull out one to me to see.
it's an orange deep red! he say that all the judge like this orange red because in the future it will not fade, further more, it shines when it goes near the water. i look very carefully, it not purple red, it not red red. it a deep orange red and shine! i completely agree with him. it's not cheap then. 8" for 350! i finally settle with another one 6". until now in my pond, that the most beautifull kohaku that i have (it's the most expensive 6" too) Later , i notice that the skin was thicker with time, and tight! at the edge it look sharp! (kiwai?) i been looking for another one since then at mamy places, but not. finaly i found one at an simple pet shop. it small 4" but orange red ($12), i bought just to make a gamble. because i see the skin was tight! it turn out several week after, a shinning wet orange red small kohaku. Keep looking, with luck you might find one.

[dick benbow]

Keep in mind that with the constant introduction of new parents red can change and what you learned over ther past few years may no longer be relavent.

I have studied matsunosuke for a coupla decades now and the new beni and sumi developed in the last few years have thrown everything I knew out the window.

I have found over the years the more you begin to understand, the more you realize you need to know. Pick a breeder you like ( japanese or domestic) and begin to get aquainted with the variables. Jumping around to many peoples development of their own particular beni is a daunting task and can be quite overwhelming.

This is an all encompassing study....not to be allowed to be too overwhelming but challenging enough if you stay diligent. This weekend at Nisei koi farm, Mat found a few moments in his busy schedule to do some teaching and it was very beneficial. I'm sure Brett or Brady would be happy to do the same. There are times when the japanese breeders come to the UK or America and are hosted by
dealers to have them help educate you on what they are producing. You need to take advantage to get the info straight from the source. Last time kentaro sakai was in seattle I was able to get an Hour with him alone.

nuff rambling....this kind of study is really something that will bring your enjoyment of koi to a higher level

[lildude]

Quote: Originally Posted by dick benbow Keep in mind that with the constant introduction of new parents red can change and what you learned over ther past few years may no longer be relavent. I have studied matsunosuke for a coupla decades now and the new beni and sumi developed in the last few years have thrown everything I knew out the window. I have found over the years the more you begin to understand, the more you realize you need to know. Pick a breeder you like ( japanese or domestic) and begin to get aquainted with the variables. Jumping around to many peoples development of their own particular beni is a daunting task and can be quite overwhelming. This is an all encompassing study....not to be allowed to be too overwhelming but challenging enough if you stay diligent. This weekend at Nisei koi farm, Mat found a few moments in his busy schedule to do some teaching and it was very beneficial. I'm sure Brett or Brady would be happy to do the same. There are times when the japanese breeders come to the UK or America and are hosted by dealers to have them help educate you on what they are producing. You need to take advantage to get the info straight from the source. Last time kentaro sakai was in seattle I was able to get an Hour with him alone. nuff rambling....this kind of study is really something that will bring your enjoyment of koi to a higher level

Well said Dick Benbow . Lets get off the little Tateshita Vs. Tategoi conversation and LEARN!

[jbolding]

I think that by having this discussion we are learning. I believe that at least at the dealers I frequent that you can find pretty good persimmon beni on younger koi that are relatively reasonable priced (under 1k). However, it is a lot easier to find those with hard beni. Further I would say that most everything that we see here stateside falls under the Tateshita category versus Tategoi which are found in japan. There are of course exceptions but they are rare. That is why as of late I have become more and more interested in finding out more about our quality domestic breeders.