Koi Teeth

[Sangreaal]

Are those molars I see way back in Blurt's maw?

Marie

[GazKoi]

Yes it could be how do you think they crunch up those big pellets

http://www.koiquest.co.uk/koi%20teeth.htm

[dick benbow]

have to tell you both a story.....had a leak one day in the inside pond. It was very slow but evident so I tried various learned methods to find out the cause. After a long frustrating time I finally discovered the cause. Several of the bigger koi's teeth had jammed into the threads of my valve which didn't allow it to close properly. They shed them on a regular basis.....

[Sangreaal]

Quote: Originally Posted by GazKoi Yes it could be how do you think they crunch up those big pellets http://www.koiquest.co.uk/koi%20teeth.htm

*LOL* I knew they had teeth but didn't know how far back they were.... So I'm seeing Blurt's pearly whites, eh? Cool.

Marie

[Sangreaal]

Quote: Originally Posted by dick benbow have to tell you both a story.....had a leak one day in the inside pond. It was very slow but evident so I tried various learned methods to find out the cause. After a long frustrating time I finally discovered the cause. Several of the bigger koi's teeth had jammed into the threads of my valve which didn't allow it to close properly. They shed them on a regular basis.....

OMG! I'd heard that they can be as big as a human's, but I didn't know they shed them regularly. Any particular time of year this happens, or is it random?

[JasPR]

Nope. further down than that- The area you are looking at is typical of opportunistic omnivorous scavenger feeders. The floor of the mouth rises and falls for breathing ( forcing water over the gills for oxygen extraction) and for sucking in food to be delivered to the gill area ( on the lower pharyngeal bone) where there is a grinding stone ( appropriately called a 'carp stone' ) and then mashed by 3 rows/sets of molar like teeth. The 'bump' you are seeing is a pharyngeal pad ( some say similar to a tongue?) that contains muscle, connective tissue and on top-taste buds. This arrangement makes great sense for a carp, a fish that must take bites of the ‘mud’ and plants and then separate out the food from the ‘not food’. This is called winnowing. AFTER the mud is mostly spit out, the food must then be masticated. All pellets are chewed by the way- this not only makes the pieces smaller but also opens ‘new surface’ for predigestion and digestion. I say this because dishonest food manufactures , in an effort to save money and production costs, once floated a tale that small pellets are more easily digested- poppy-cock.
Some shed teeth-

[Sangreaal]

Quote: Originally Posted by JasPR Nope. further down than that- ...The 'bump' you are seeing is a pharyngeal pad ( some say similar to a tongue?) that contains muscle, connective tissue and on top-taste buds. Some shed teeth-

Thanks JR. I think I can see what you're saying. The bump we're seeing in Blurt's maw is like the back outer ridge of our tongues where the big taste buds are, and it is used to manipulate food during the winnowing process.

Great pic of the shed teeth. Perfectly ridged for grinding. Any pics with a reference point as to their size?

Marie

[JasPR]

Another picture to show scale? Don't think so? But these are from large koi ( all over 26 inches). They do not get as large as human molars- typically the very biggest are not quite the size of the eraser on a # 2 pencil. JR

[68bruin]

Given smaller pieces of food, human teeth are able to masticate it quicker and more thoroughly in a given amount of time and digest it better - I think we all have experienced that. Wouldn't it seem to follow that if koi had smaller pellets of food to masticate, they could "puree" it finer and therefore digest it more thoroughly in a given amount of time than larger pellets? Because of the gluttony of koi, I would think that being able to swallow the most food in a given amount of time and try to out-compete your fellow koi, is an advantage and better digestion of the amount of food consumed due to maximum mastication with the teeth would lead to more growth and less waste products with the same quantity of food. What's wrong with my logic? (I know there must be something)

[JasPR]

that logic wouldn't boded well for feeding whole shrimp then! Koi do not digest and assimilate food the same way people do for two simple reasons:
1) they do not have stomachs ( long digestion guts many times the length of the actual koi)
2) they are cold blooded and assimilate is regulated by temperature.
If you are suggesting that the heavier the meal, the more fish will absorb, this is not correct as any sump will tell you- and your nose. It is the assimilation rate ( and movement of food through gut based on temperatures) and not the pounds per inch that are packed in during a single feeding. This is why auto-feeders are used or why it is recommended that fish be fed small meals several times a day in growth season as opposed to large single meals.
So in the case of the same formula pellets, the assimilation rates of two size pellets would be the same ( assuming same temperature) but limited by the ability of the gut to absorb ( the old eye bigger than the stomach issue) total calorie intake in a given time interval. If you are suggesting they would be able to take in more pellets per minute- then you are suggesting a limited amount of pellets being offered in a limited time interval ? 5 minutes of feeding and most koi will be content. Once you cross the line of the actual absorption rate, you get things like white stools ( fish diarrhea). This is called the ‘digestion energy rate, which refers to the feeding response AFTER the first two or three means of the day are in the gut. Once ‘energy demand’ is satisfied, the assimilation rate will change and meals will be processed differently. Attractants coating some pellets is a good idea if you want fat fish but not a good idea if you want healthy fish. I’m getting off topic but in terms of Volume per meal, you are limited by these realties of assimilation and not about size of crumbs? I suspect that the post-masticated size is similar in both pellets.
As far as size of pellet goes, pellets should match the size of the koi- large pellets are not too large for those grinding molars ( which grind open and crush the shells of clams and cockles) and can EASILY crush a pellet in one crunch. You can often see particles of food come out of the gills as the fish chews. So too small a powder or fine a grain and you are polluting surrounding water. Juvenile fish- small pellet, pre-adult- medium pellet, adult fish, large pellet.
Basic koi nutrition requires a certain mix of ingredients/food groups and a certain amount of calories per day for growth. Once you have done that correctly, the rest is counter productive.