Russell Water Gardens and Kodama Koi Farm Pair Up /Merged Thread

[dOHd]

A correction if you will. I posted AES instead of ADI which is the have you hugged your rocks in your pond people.

AES is one of the most dependable suppliers in the aquatics industry. My appologies for misstyping.

Thanks Mick for the heads up and correction.

Now back to your regularly scheduled programing.

d

[John Russell]

Hello everyone,

Thanks for all the passionate comments. First of all, Don. I have answered your questions on the other thread - but in case you didn't read it....here it is cut and pasted from the other thread.
Answers to Don's questions
Hello Don,

Thank you for the questions. Here are my answers.

Yes, Mr. Russell . . .
please address the following points which we, as evolved koi keepers, would consider absolute minimums that any pond would have to meet prior to being considered a 'true' koi pond by any serious koi keeper:

1. Volume
Russell Watergardens is a little different in calculating "how much water a koi needs". There on many "rules of thumb" that are correct, but only to a point. 10 gallons per inch, 100 gallons per 10" are all fine places to start - but these calculation do not consider the filter's capabilities. Our philosophy at Russell Watergardens goes a step further and takes into account the Total Specific Surface Area (SSA) of the biofilter and pond in relation to how much waste in can metabolize per 24 hours. According to many sources found around the internet (links below) - biofilters metabolize an average of .1 grams of fish waste per square foot of biofilm. It takes roughly 50 square feet of biofilm to metabolize 1 gram of ammonia per day. Koi produce approximately 1/3 of their weight in waste every day.

So, with a minum of 10 gallons of water per inch of koi - we also add the biofilters SSA and the pond's SSA to the mix to tell us exactly how much fish - by weight - that can be placed in the pond.

The Total SSA tells us exactly how much fish waste and ammonia the pond and filtration system can metabolize per 24 hours. The total fish waste tells us how much fish - by weight - produced it. The total amount of fish weight tells us what size fish, or fishes can be placed in the pond.

The reason we take this approach is because 10" of fish could be 10 1" fish, 5 2" fish, 2 5" fish, or 1 10" fish. Fish produce waste and ammonia in relation to the weight - not length. For example, a 1" koi weighs (on average) .28 grams, 10 of them have a combined weight of 2.8 grams. BUT, a single 10" koi weighs (on average) 275 grams! Koi produce approximately 1/3 of their body weight in waste per day - so the 10 1" fish with their combined weight of 2.8 grams only produce .93 grams of waste per day - but the 10" koi produces a whopping 91.67 grams of waste every day!

The 10 1" koi, in addition to the 100 gallons of water they require, needs a minium of 9.3 SSA filter/pond biofilm SSA to metabolize their .93 grams of waste per day. (.93 / .1 = 9.3 SSA)

The 1 10" koi, in addition to the 100 gallons of water it requires needs a minimum of 916.70 SSA filter/pond biofilm SSA to metabolize its 91.67 grams of waste per day. (91.67 / .1 = 916.70 SSA)

So you see, for the correct volume of water and koi - we also need to look at the total intended fish weight (including future growth) of the pond to calculated exactly. For example, a biofilter with 1,200 SSA could metablozie 120 grams of fish waste per day. (1200 x .1 = 120). That 120 grams of fish waste was created by 360 grams of fish weight. Look on any fish wieght chart to see what 360 grams of fish equals.

Koi need a minimum of 10 gallons of water per inch in length AND 3.33 square feet of Specific Surface Area (SSA) biofilm per gram of total fish weight. This tells you how much water, and how much SSA your biofilter requirements are.

Metabolization formulas and links to sources may be seen here:
http://www.russellwatergardens.com/metabolization.htm

Fish weights and pond stocking levels based on SSA may be seen here:
http://www.russellwatergardens.com/P...ishweights.htm


2. Depth

According to the many breaders I have met in Niigatta Japan, as well as Mr. Mamoru Kodama, as well as many of you tell me - the recommended water depth for optimum koi health is 3 times deep as the longest koi. For example: A 10" koi should have a minimum of 30" of depth, an 18" koi should have a minimum of 54", and so on. Keep in mind koi grow - so make the pond three times as deep as you think your largest koi will grow. This 3:1 ratio is for optimum conditions for koi - and the rule is not "set is stone". The water can be slightly deeper or shallower and the koi will be fine.

3. Pumps & Circulation (turnover and TPRs)
In ponds 10,000 gallons and less, I recommend turning the water over once per hour through the filtration system. This is to help reduce ammonia spiking - especially right after feeding. On ponds 10,000, but under 20,000 gallons - once every two hours is sufficient. Ponds 20,000-40,000 once every 3-4 hours is fine. Over that we get into once every 6-24 hours. The higher the water volume, the more dilluted ammonia gets in relation to "parts per million".

As for pumps. No submersible pump is rated for "swimming use". Meaning that they should be disconnected from the power source before a human enters the pond. In all cases, they should be connect to GFCI protected circuits. Submersible pumps typically are less expensive to purchase than centrifugal pumps, but more costly to run. The usually have higher head capabilities are most often prefered when build large - or high waterfalls. Submersible pumps hide inside skimmers and are much easier to plumb.

Centrifugal pumps are much more effiecient in terms of electrical usage. They have know electric motors in the water - so they are prefered in you intend on getting in your pond. They are typically more expensive to purchase than submersibles, but last longer and use less power so they pay for themselves fairly quickly. They aren't as easy to plumb, or hide, than submersible pumps. But, they can be placed virtually anywhere, wheras as submersible is almost always inside a pond skimmer. Centrifugal pumps can be connected to pond skimmers and bottom drains - submersible pumps have to have bottom drains connected to the pond skimmer.

4. Bottom Drains
Bottom drains are a "must have" item on all bare liner ponds - be they rubber, polyurea, gunite, etc. Bare liner only has an SSA of 1, and thus doesn't have much biofilm on it to help break down settle debris. Bottom drains facility easier removal of settled organics on the bottom of the pond and make cleaning the pond bottom much easier.

Bottom drains should not be used on gravel bottom ponds for clogging purposes. Also, the downward force of the water current would causes more debris to get sucked downward to the gravel instead of horizontal to the skimmer. The gravel doesn't let the debris to "skip" across to the bottom to get into the bottom drain - and thus cause more problems that its worth.


5. Skimmers
Skimmers are essential in all bodies of water in all situations to capture and facilitate removal of wind blown debris.

6. Supplemental Air
Supplemental air is reccomended on all ponds deeper than 24" for multiple reasons. The first is to increase disolved oxygen, the second is to circulate bottom water upward. As the air bubbles move upward, they pull water upward also - creating a bottom to top water current. The third reason is for keeping a hole in the ice open in freezing temperatures.

7. Settlement Chamber
Settlement chambers are great when space and customer's budget allows. They place less burden on biofilters by removing higher amounts of solid waste than mechanical filters can perform on their own. The key to settlement chambers is slow water movement.

8. Mechanical Filtration
All water features of any type should have mechanical filtration of some sort. Typically pond skimmers have mechanical filtration characteristics in addition to floating debris removal. Mechanical filtration, whether it is inside pond skimmers, or between settement chambers is accomplished with brushes, and/or various types of filter pads. The key to mechanical filtration is servicability.

9. Biological Filtration
In bodies of water containing any living creature from frogs to koi absolutely require biological filtration. There are many types, and brands of biofilters - they can also be "hand-made". The key to any biofilter is how much Specific Surface Area (SSA) does it have? How do you clean it? How does water enter and exit it?

10. Off-gassing (TT, Baki, &/or falls & streams)
I don't know what TT or Baki is - but Off-gassing through falls, streams, or fountains is essential to ecosystems for the purpose of releasing nitrogen into the atmosphere. Nitrogen is a byproduct of the nitrification cycle. It is also recommend that when filling, or re-filling a pond - the water source should be above water level for Off-gassing of chlorine gasses, and other gasses that may be present.

12. Water changes (%age & frequency)
Water changes in ponds without significant aquatic plants should be at least 20% per week. Nitrate is a byproduct of the nitrification cycle. In ponds with significant aquatic plants, the nitrates are consumed by the aquatic plants. In ponds with significant aquatic plants there is virtually no nitrates left in the water, so a minimum of 5% per week is ideal.

13. Rocks, gravel & plants
Rocks, gravel & plants are "good" and "bad". Rocks and gravel increase the total SSA of the pond - which increases the ammonia and fish waste metabolization - but if not kept clean ON A REGULAR BASIS become harmful to the ecosystem. Clean R&G add to the overall SSA biofilm. On average, a 2" deep gravel layer has an average SSA 8. Bare liner has an SSA of 1.

Dirty gravel adds to the bio-load of the pond and reduces the efficiency of the biofilter itself. Dirty gravel creates a build-up of mulm & detritus organic sludge on the pond bottom. This organic sludge adds to the organic load that can encourage algae growth in the pond (both green water algae and string algae). Organic sludge can also reduce dissolved oxygen levels in the water that can produce anaerobic zones that support pathogenic bacteria like Aeromonas and Pseudomonas. These bacteria strains have been linked to fish ulcers and death. Organic sludge also provides a breeding ground for parasites, flukes, and protozoa that can infect fish and cause severe health problems.

Clean gravel adds to the biofilm SSA for faster ammonia removal. Provides for "ammusent" for fish. Clean gravel keeps the sun's UV rays from deteriating rubber liners, provides "balast" to keep rubber liners in place, and is more decorative than bare liner.

Rocks in the pond can be hazardous to fish with non-related rock related health problems. A fish with any sort of skin or gill irritation will scratch, or "flash" against rocks. This may potentialy damage the fish'es scales or skin - rendering it less valuable.

Aquatic plants consume nitrates from the water that would otherwise feed algae - free floating and string. Aquatic plants provide shade to the fish, and add beauty to the pond. Aquatic plants can introduce parasites into the pond - so before placing aquatic plants in ponds, it is recommended that they recieve a "dip" in Potasium Permanganate or similar anti-parasite treatement. Aquatic plants can also be a source of entertainment for fish - as well as spawning material.


Please take it from me, John, if you won't (or can't) address all these points right up front then I'm afraid you're not going to enjoy posting on this board. Don
__________________
Don

Thanks for the great questions Don! Keep'em coming.
Sincerely,
John Russell

[jnorth]

Quote: Originally Posted by John Russell 10. Off-gassing (TT, Baki, &/or falls & streams) I don't know what TT or Baki is - but Off-gassing through falls, streams, or fountains is essential to ecosystems for the purpose of releasing nitrogen into the atmosphere. Nitrogen is a byproduct of the nitrification cycle. It is also recommend that when filling, or re-filling a pond - the water source should be above water level for Off-gassing of chlorine gasses, and other gasses that may be present. 13. Rocks, gravel & plants Rocks in the pond can be hazardous to fish with non-related rock related health problems. A fish with any sort of skin or gill irritation will scratch, or "flash" against rocks. This may potentialy damage the fish'es scales or skin - rendering it less valuable. Aquatic plants consume nitrates from the water that would otherwise feed algae - free floating and string. Aquatic plants provide shade to the fish, and add beauty to the pond. Aquatic plants can introduce parasites into the pond - so before placing aquatic plants in ponds, it is recommended that they recieve a "dip" in Calcium Permanganate or similar anti-parasite treatement. Aquatic plants can also be a source of entertainment for fish - as well as spawning material.

Trickle Towers and Bakki Showers are pretty well known in the koi keeping world these days but here is an article that sums up Bakkis http://www.yumekoi.com/articles/bkks_2003.pdf

Owner doesn't "fluff" rocks-bad bacteria ensues-koi get sick-flash against the rocks causing more damage. Not the rocks fault..it's obviously the owners fault for putting the rocks in there...of course he might have been convinced by a "Professional" as to how great rocks are . Easy cure-Get rid of the rocks!

I like to use potassium permanganate, otherwise known as pp on most of the koi boards but to each his own I guess....

[Jagger]

Quote: Originally Posted by mitten Ah, but Jagger, who is this fellow allied with? Kodama. The father, the son, the farm, the auction and the books. Heavy weight to place in the hands of commision sales people selling pretty ponds to umm, the public, yes that 's a nice thing to call them before they are fluffed. Mickey the windowman

Indeed Mickey,from what I can tell a dealer of the highest quality Japanese koi,not dissimilar to several dealers we have over here.Mr.Russell has explained as clearly as possible the equations used in the design of his koi ponds.His business partner can supply high grade koi to go in those ponds.The customer is then a keeper of high grade Japanese koi in a pond with a documented design parameter,ie how many fish can be service by the design purchased, including filters.That sounds like a sound business model for everyone involved.If everything went to plan after install then what would be wrong with this set up?

Well,the customer/owner could overfeed,neglect to clean the filters,neglect to change water,neglect to stay at the recommended stocking density,neglect to perform health checks,neglect to utilise quarantine procedures,neglect to "fluff his gravel",just pure neglect the pond.And he could get away with it for a few years as so many do before the trouble starts.Mass die offs of high quality fish for no apparent reason? Who's going to get the blame? Not the owner that's for sure because people don't work like that.It will be someone else's fault no doubt.

Now if I were in the market for a koi pond I'd have a look around the people who could build it.I'd then talk to these people to decide who'd get the commission to build.I'd then set out my requirements for the design in the light of twenty odd years of experience and I'd expect the pond to be built to those exact specifications.I could blame nobody else if I got the design wrong and I wouldn't.

But how about Mr.Joe.I.Wannakoipond who goes to Mr.Russell and talks it over with him and says I want a pond where I can keep 20 large Japanese koi and watch them grow and frolic.Mr.Russell then has a good idea of what is required,can design and build the pond and stock it with carefully selected fish to the desired density,and educate on the upkeep requirements of the pond.

I really can't see what the problem is with that.In fact this must be the best way forward for the koi hobby as a whole.Or would you prefer the staus quo,where currently any old builder/landscaper will take the commission to build a "koi pond" that is not far removed from a swimming pool/water garden and run?

It seems that you are railing against this current state of affairs as much as what appears to be a progressive shift in the supply and building of koi ponds being proposed by Mr.Russell.

There is no set standard for a koi pond.There is no "One True Way".There are only choices.The fact that you individually would not choose to let Mr.Russell near your yard with as much as a spade in his hand doesn't mean everyone new to hobby shouldn't.

I've only seen reasoned comments from Mr.Russell and I've pretty much only seen animosity directed toward him here.I'm impressed with his resolve.I always thought you were allowed to steal a horse before the rope was thrown over the tree.

Perhaps it would be better to say "Show me" before you say "Shame on you".Or are you really,truly convinced he's going to steal the horse?

[jnorth]

Quote: Originally Posted by John Russell Next grade would be koi identification, next disease identification and treatement.

Will you be charging for this service? Or will you be doing this for free? Walk in basis? I'm talking about the service and not the medications. Obviously if I have a bunch of sick koi I might need someone to come onsite. Would I be charged for that?

[John Russell]

Hello again everyone,

Whew! Where do I start - you're a bunch of Hyenas and I'm raw meat.

First of all, thank you all for your passionate comments. Let me try to address them.

Dayleen,
I apologize if our staff didn't come out to say hello to you on your visit. I have forwarded your comments to our sales staff and we have a meeting scheduled to discuss it. Not making excuses, but our old site was 3 acres and our staff can't be everywhere at once. Our new place is smaller in acrege - and you have to pass through the store to get out to out displays. We'll have a better chance of seeing you.

Also, you mentioned Ultima II filters. We had those filters on some fish retail tanks about about 2 years ago. No those weren't koi ponds, they where tanks for retailing. We were not happy with that brand of filter - and we tried two other brands with unsatisfactory results also. This is what led us to develop our own Hydro Bead Vortex filters.

At that time, yes - most of the displays were of the same type - but they were all different in terms of the filters and flow rates. At that time we had displays featuring Aquascape, Savio, Easy Pro, and Pondsweep products - as well as proto types of our own line that we were testing. Also at that time we were not selling or installing koi pond products. Each pond was a rock and gravel pond - but if you'll remember - no two had the same size of filters or waterfalls.

The IPPCA forum is not a RWG "brown nose" forum anymore than this forum is. You are free to post your opinions their just as I'm allowed to post my opinions here. RWG is a paying sponser of the IPPCA because they are the best alternative in the market to Aquascape's forum. We'll probably sign up as a sponsor of this forum as well becuase we feel that supporting forums like these are good for the industry as a whole. We here at Russell Watergardens uses contractors all around the country to help us perfect our products - Aquascape doesn't let their Certified Contractors try other manufacturer's products - so we work with a lot of good contractors that are part of the IPPCA site. Once all of you get to know me a little better - we'll do the same thing here. We get our products in the hands of professionals to get their feedback on what we can do to improve our products.

We'll have a Grand Opening at our new store sometime in spring 2007 and I personally invite you to attend - and I promise I'll say "hello" to you. You will notice at the new store a much wider variety of pond styles as we prepare for our Franchise program.

As a retailer, we're only as good as we treat an unhappy customer. While we aim to always have the highest customer service, sometimes we drop the ball for some reason - though it is usually a result of too many customers and not enough employees. We make no excuses - and I promise that we will do what ever it takes to rectify any customer service errors.

Don,

I am not stating that we wish to put koi in a water gardens. I am not stating that a water garden or Hybrid pond is better than a koi pond. I am stating that koi can, and do live in all three. I clearly point out the differences. I agree with you that koi can - and do hurt themselves on rocks. I am not arguing with any of you. You are all so used to arguing with Aquascapers that you assume I am the same.

I am not saying anyone has to "compromise" on their favorite type of pond. I am saying that not all customers are the same - some want something different. So insted of getting in their face and telling them how wrong they are - we educate them on what they are getting and what to expect.

The problems, as I see them, with both the koi and water garden industries is that they're both way too stubborn. A rabbid landscaper-slash-pond-builder-with-a-pond-kit-catalog yells at you that "You ALWAYS have to have rocks & gravel in the pond!" - you people yell right back: "You should NEVER have rocks & gravel in the pond!" Neither side is going to change - so why try? Where is the arguing getting you? And how is it benefitting someone thinking about owning a pond? Many of our customers have told us that they're "turned off" by all the bickering. So in an attempt to satisfy our customers, we don't allienate any of them by getting into these debates on one side or the other.

We here at Russell Watergardens simply try to educate the consumer to the advantages and disadvantages to both sides, and also offer a suitable alternative. We give them choice.

It really doesn't matter if a pond owner wants rocks and gravel or not, it doesn't matter if they want a bead filter or waterfall type filter, it doesn't matter if the what a submersible or centrifugal pump, it doesn't matter if they want rubber liner, polyurea, or gunite, it doesn't matter if they want waterfalls, streams, or a fountain. What matters is having the best possible components for the type of water feature the customer wants. Couple that with thorough education, information, and maintenance requirments of their chosen feature is. We here at Russell Watergardens want to supply the best products possible for what ever format the custmer chooses.

Everyone is too hung up on gravel on both sides of the isle. Gravel isn't the issue - DIRTY GRAVEL is the REAL ISSUE. What ever the type of pond - water quality and clean living conditions are the priority.

Lets all face it, not everyone wants koi ponds, and not everyone wants water gardens. There are a lot of customers on both sides of the isle. You are eliminating half of your potential customer base if you don't include the other side.

I invite each and everyone of you to watch our web site as we build all our new display at our new store over these winter months. If you're in the Seattle area - please drop by at any time. Feel free to give us any suggestions on how we may improve our store to better serve you.

Thanks so much everyone - it is my pleasure converse with you all.
Sincerely,
John Russell

[jbolding]

On aquatic plants you state-"Aquatic plants consume nitrates from the water that would otherwise feed algae - free floating and string. Aquatic plants provide shade to the fish, and add beauty to the pond. Aquatic plants can introduce parasites into the pond - so before placing aquatic plants in ponds, it is recommended that they receive a "dip" in Calcium Permanganate or similar anti-parasite treatment. Aquatic plants can also be a source of entertainment for fish - as well as spawning material." But what about the extra bio load they place on the filter? Is that calculated in? What about the mess the plants/fish cause when the are a source of entertainment to your fish? That would require additional mechanical filtration needs. As for drawing out Nitrate that are many better, and less expensive ways to accomplish this than water plants. In my opinion as well as I am sure many others on this board plants and koi should not be mixed in the same pond.

There were many other statements you made above that made me cringe, but aside from that I can see that you are trying to move the water gardening hobby/industry forward and out of the ADI stage. However, with that being said shouldn't you also counsel you customers to move toward the pure koi keeping model if they must put koi in their pond? I mean shouldn't you help those who get into water gardening and try to put fish in a pond to better their situation. Eventually I believe you will end up with happier water gardeners and happier koi keepers. The hybrid might be a good place to start, but is definitely not a place to stay to long, and perhaps you should impress this point on your customers.

[MikeM]

Mr. Russell, you are a brave fellow to come to a board frequented by kichi to explain your game plans. I am all in favor of selling a lot of modest quality koi to help the breeders make a living; but, really, you should not have the gravel in the pond. A few plants don't matter too much. The koi will eliminate them once they get some size. The gravel does matter. It is obvious you are quite aware of that. If a customer wants koi and gravel together AFTER you tell them they will regret it, go ahead and make the sale. Just don't make it sound like you are taking a "balanced" approach when you clearly understand that koi and gravel do not belong together.

[dOHd]

First off, I want to publicly appologise to Mr. Russell. After viewing the website, you are not the Mr. Russell I have had conversations with. My heartfelt appology. And shame on me for not getting all the proper information in advance before making my post.

And should I ever have the oppertunity to be in your area, or our paths meet, I will do so again in person.

d

[John Russell]

Hello Jbolding,

You misquoted me - I didn't say that aquatic plants are "recommended". I said that if you choose to have aquatic plants - for what ever reason, its your personal choice - that I recommend treating them for parasites prior to putting them in a pond with koi. I was simply answering a question about aquatic plants. You can have them, or not - if you do, there are some things a person should know.

Yes, there are alternatives to aquatic plants for nitrate removal. Water changes is the simplest.

Yes, koi do like to play in aquatic plants - some people enjoy watching koi rip and tug at aquatic plants. What we recommend for aquatic plants in ponds without gravel is that they are placed inside baskets with gravel around the root balls. This helps to keep the plant's soil in place - (but remember, koi are solid muscle so they can move small gravel real easy.) Then later, as the plant's roots grow out of the basket - it is easier salad for the koi. There are also nets that can be placed around aquatic plants as well.

Please tell me what other statement, or statments I made that "made you cringe" - maybe I can better explain myself, or learn something from you. I'm open to your opinions and experience.

All of you are still missing the point: I AM NOT SAYING THAT YOU HAVE TO BUILD A POND ANY CERTAIN WAY. What I am saying, is that what ever way is your prefered method, we here at Russell Watergardens want to supply you with the best possible products for your application. Where ever we can improve our products - we will......always.

I am not arguing with any of you. I agree with all of you. But, as a 'realist', I know that what you people like, not everyone else does - and what someone else likes - you people detest. As a business model - we are trying to simply trying to include all sides of a debate so that everyone can learn something......including me. What I've learned in the past few days is that you people are just as set in your was as Aquascaper contractors.

Aquascapers have the "My way is the only way" and you people also have a "My way is the only way". You'll never change the other's mind so why bang your head against the wall trying?

Koi ponds are good for the people who like them.
Hybrid ponds are good for the people who like them.
Water gardens are good for the people who like them.
Not everyone has the same priorities or tastes.

You asked if I should "steer a customer" towards a true koi pond. We don't "steer" anyone. Our store concept has all types of ponds and waterfeatures for the customers to see. They can pick and choose what they prefer and we assemble the best system for their project.

I talk about how to achieve the best fish health in each of the environments with the best components for each type. You now know that RWG provides products and information on all three types. I'm glad that you all are noticing that our Hybrid line of products is vastly improving the water gardening side - and infuriating the folks at Aquascape at the same time. But you all are forgetting that we also have designed bead filters and centrifugal pumps for the koi pond industry. I would also like your input on how you, yourself, might improve on a product or idea that you already have.

If any of you would like to discuss our Hydro Bead Vortex filters or Hydro Centrimax centrifugal pumps - I will be happy to.

Sincerely,
John Russell